What do you think happened in/after,,

[Mitchell]

What do you think happened in after WWIII?
Besides what little Trek has told us over the years I mean. Since they have been quite vague in discribing this downward turning point in Earth (Trek) History.

They've stated time an again that Societys coalpsed all around the world, but fail to mention which Nations.
Spock once said 37 million people died, but in First Contact that its said that 600 million were dead. Was Spock refering to the number dead dring the War, an was the 600 Million in FC a result of Fallout from the War?

Who was the Eastern Coalition Picard spoke of?

Me Ive often thought of the Eastern Coalition as the "Bad guys" obviously. A Untied group of Nations bent on the distruction of Western civilsation. You Know a United China, North Korean, an Vietnam force. Possibly even other nations that are naughty.
Atleast the name would fit that group.


How badly was The US an its Allies Damaged after the War? Was it one of the few surviving remaining (some what intact) goverments? Now as a die hard Patriot I cant help but beleave that the US was the Major surviours. Ya know nearly every US city avoids destroyed thanks to a finaly functional workin Missle defence system. An all that good stuff. Id even explain Zefram Cochrane an his group as being a group of refugees that left citys when missles were launched during the final days of the war at citys, an they still hid out of fear in the wilderness of Montana. An because of the lose of Man power do to the War, THats how they got easy access to a Missile silo.

In short personlay Id have most of the Destruction an Death take place else where on Earth.

An since the Vulcans never seemed to eager to help out in anyway during Enterprise, I wonder how that much damage could of been rebuilt in less then a 100 years. Unless one of the Major Nations survived relativly intact.


What are your thoughts. since I cant help but wonder what the rest of you think on this.

[Rigil Kent]

Actually, I tend think that the US was one of the nations hit the hardest during WWIII. It's no secret that there are a lot of nations out there who strongly dislike or openly hate America, and I can easily see them banding together (in an "Axis of Evil", so to speak but now called the Eastern Coalition) to hit the super power of the time with everything they've got. And then, as the US reels in what they (the EC) think of as her death throes, the Coalition collapses into in-fighting.

My personal timeline begins with the "Eugenics Wars" which basically consist of a bunch of Augments attempting to seize control, probably in the wake of a regime change of some sort. Given recent events (and yeah, this pretty much reveals my conservative politics), I can see America scaling back the War on Terror with the current ... "leadership" in the House & Senate forcing it. This leads to a couple of power vacuums in the Middle East which are promptly filled, possibly by the first of these Augments. War breaks out as the Augments begin seizing control and power by invading ill-prepared countries (ala the Third Reich in WWII). By the time America gets involved again (since we've got the whole "bring our troops home NOW regardless of what happens to the rest of the world" mentality kicking in), the entire region is a mess with whole nations and societies collapsing under the war. The Augments are "defeated" but not destroyed, and America's slow entry into the conflict only fans the flames of dislike toward her. It's during this time that Khan Noonien Singh and his merry band grab the Botany Bay and bug out (don't care what TOS said about the date of his flight).

Many years later, the Augments begin moving once more but this time form the Eastern Coalition from the collapsed nation-states, including Korea, China, India, large chunks of eastern Russia, etc. Combining the Islamo-Fascist method of attack with their own style, they unleash a massive assault on America and Western Europe which results in death on an immense scale. The US is completely unprepared and the government effectively collapses with only small pockets of sanity remaining. Almost instantly, the Eastern Coalition begins to self-destruct as its "member states" begin fighting amongst themselves about what to do next. Cue even more missiles flying and more mushroom clouds. By the time the dust has settled, the EC has basically nuked itself into oblivion and are no longer a factor. Meanwhile, a guy in Montana (who is unaware of these events) has a dream about warp speed...

That's just IMO though...

[Jedikatie]

Well, here's the article from Memory Alpha on the subject:

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/World_War_III

ETA: I also remember at least one of the novels from back in the '80s (or maybe early '90s) which mentioned WWIII and the various alliances involved, but I couldn't tell you which novel it was (or what they were called). I do know that in that author's version, they did state who attacked whom and who the players in the coalitions that fought were. Wish I could remember the book's name, though...

[Rigil Kent]

During the middle of ENT Season 4, plans were in place for an episode to feature Colonel Green. It was planned to link Q's World War III uniform to the Colonel by having the emblem on Q's hood appear on flags representing Green. Such a flag was created for "In a Mirror, Darkly" and seen in the briefing room aboard the ISS Enterprise (NX-01).

When Enterprise was cancelled, plans for the episode fell through and all that remains of the link between Q's uniform and Colonel Green is the flag seen in the mirror universe.

Get out. Manny Coto wanted to do something that involved fitting ENT into proper continuity? Where's my crowbar? I want to go pay some network execs a visit...

[Mitchell]

Weird. Uh not yer Rigil post it makes a lot of sence.

Whats weird is that I both would want what you said to happen, an Id want my version.

If your Idea came to be, then atleast we couldnt blame the exsistance of the Panzy Ass hippy Federation in any way on the United States. But at the Same time I dont want to see the US Destroyed/crippled. Hell I got pissed after seein "Red Dawn" for the first time, an felt like tracking down some damn Commies.



ID find it hard to beleave in such a strong conection between the Euagenic war, an WWIII. since their was over half a century seperating them. But Yeah considering how like minded Khan was with the current leaders of Middle East region, I could easily see some one like him gain control of a large portions of the Middle East with little trouble at all. And since theirs been very few people in Trek of middle Eastern desent. The Euagenic War could explain that.


Another thing to consider is, how far ahead is the WWIII US ahead compared to the Rest of the world, or its enemys? Since Military/defence tech wise were what 20, 30 years ahead of nations like China right now. But unless we had a workin Ballistic Missle defence system, yeah the US could still get taken by suprise. But if such a system did exsist then a sudden attack would be a lot harder an probably more traditional.

[Rigil Kent]

If your Idea came to be, then atleast we couldnt blame the exsistance of the Panzy Ass hippy Federation in any way on the United States.

They weren't pansy ass in the time of Kirk though. It seems pretty obvious to me that, after Kirk died, there wasn't any real backbone left in Starfleet to oppose the commies that took over and turned the Federation into that ... thing we saw in TNG.

ID find it hard to beleave in such a strong conection between the Euagenic war, an WWIII. since their was over half a century seperating them.

Well, I actually see most of the Eugenics Wars and WWIII as numerous low-intensity engagements strung together over a period of time. The various sides blow the piss out of each other, retreat and rebuild, then start all over again. By the time of Kirk & Co., they just refer to the whole thing as WWIII even if it should technically be referred to by something else.

Another thing to consider is, how far ahead is the WWIII US ahead compared to the Rest of the world, or its enemys? Since Military/defence tech wise were what 20, 30 years ahead of nations like China right now. But unless we had a workin Ballistic Missle defence system, yeah the US could still get taken by suprise. But if such a system did exsist then a sudden attack would be a lot harder an probably more traditional.

And yet, 19 guys managed to kill 3000 Americans in a single day using low tech methods. No matter how high speed a defense network we may have, there is going to be a way around it whether it's a suicide attack at the point of defense that neutralizes it before the nukes come in, or a software glitch, or a dirty bomb.

[Kevin Thomas Riley]

How does Trek deal with the "fact" that the Eugenics Wars were originally set to have happened in the 1990s? And is it war or wars?

That is contradicted with some episodes of VOY where they come back in time to that period and there isn't an augment in sight.

And what is exactly canon about WW3? I think I've seen some fans claiming that WW3 and the Eugenics Wars were the same thing?

At any rate, this is the reason why I like science fiction to set events further in the future. Sure, in the 60s I suppose they thought that 30 years ahead was in the far future, but obviuosly not far enough. It should be at least two or three generations just to be "safe".

[Rigil Kent]

I think I've seen some fans claiming that WW3 and the Eugenics Wars were the same thing?

I claim this. It fits well with what I know of the two. Even if they technically should be classified as separate engagements, it makes more sense (to me, anyhow) that they are one and the same.

[Mitchell]

During the middle of ENT Season 4, plans were in place for an episode to feature Colonel Green. It was planned to link Q's World War III uniform to the Colonel by having the emblem on Q's hood appear on flags representing Green. Such a flag was created for "In a Mirror, Darkly" and seen in the briefing room aboard the ISS Enterprise (NX-01).

When Enterprise was cancelled, plans for the episode fell through and all that remains of the link between Q's uniform and Colonel Green is the flag seen in the mirror universe.

Get out. Manny Coto wanted to do something that involved fitting ENT into proper continuity? Where's my crowbar? I want to go pay some network execs a visit...

LOL!!!! Can I come with? Ive got a sledge Hammer I use for busting up big rocks that could be handy.

If your Idea came to be, then atleast we couldnt blame the exsistance of the Panzy Ass hippy Federation in any way on the United States.

They weren't pansy ass in the time of Kirk though. It seems pretty obvious to me that, after Kirk died, there wasn't any real backbone left in Starfleet to oppose the commies that took over and turned the Federation into that ... thing we saw in TNG.

ID find it hard to beleave in such a strong conection between the Euagenic war, an WWIII. since their was over half a century seperating them.

Well, I actually see most of the Eugenics Wars and WWIII as numerous low-intensity engagements strung together over a period of time. The various sides blow the piss out of each other, retreat and rebuild, then start all over again. By the time of Kirk & Co., they just refer to the whole thing as WWIII even if it should technically be referred to by something else.

Another thing to consider is, how far ahead is the WWIII US ahead compared to the Rest of the world, or its enemys? Since Military/defence tech wise were what 20, 30 years ahead of nations like China right now. But unless we had a workin Ballistic Missle defence system, yeah the US could still get taken by suprise. But if such a system did exsist then a sudden attack would be a lot harder an probably more traditional.

And yet, 19 guys managed to kill 3000 Americans in a single day using low tech methods. No matter how high speed a defense network we may have, there is going to be a way around it whether it's a suicide attack at the point of defense that neutralizes it before the nukes come in, or a software glitch, or a dirty bomb.

Reading about Col.Green I cant help but think the guy sounded like a Euagenic. Especialy one of those Alpha Male Khan type Euagenics. So I guess Ill revise my thinkin on them being involved in WWIII. They just IMO probably wernt the main men/man behind the Eastern Coalition.



But Rigil the 22nd century Earth seemed awwfully hippyish dont forget.



Yeah I know we wer cought with our pants down.
But to do something simaler in design an plan, on the scale large enough to cripple the Majority of the US, Thats a hell of a lot more difficult to pull off Id imagine.

But perhaps Terorest like attacks on MD systems instalations combined with more Traditional nuke attacks could pull it off. But dang that would take a lot cooperation. An would have to be perfectly timed. An the likely hood that something that large beign planned would be found out by a "Intelagence Agency" before hand is more likely considerign the ammount of people that would be required to pull such an attack off.

[Jedikatie]

^
Well if you go by the two novels (yeah, I know, the novels aren't canon) written a few years back by Greg Cox (and I believe he wrote a third one that was released last year in that series, though I think that deals entirely with Khan after the events of Space Seed), which were about Khan specifically and the events leading up to, and including, the Eugenics War, then it was in 1996 (which fits with the information given in TOS).

Likewise, they also have that guy, what's his first name Christopher's flight to Saturn (which I think was also mentioned on TOS, but don't quote me on that) and the DY-100 class ship that Khan escaped on (or rather, was 'allowed' to escape on by Gary Seven) in the second of the two novels.

[Kevin Thomas Riley]

I think I've seen some fans claiming that WW3 and the Eugenics Wars were the same thing?

I claim this. It fits well with what I know of the two. Even if they technically should be classified as separate engagements, it makes more sense (to me, anyhow) that they are one and the same.

Man, this is confusing and I'm no better off reading Memory Alpha. However, this line (from the entry on The Eugenics Wars) caught my eye:

It is also possible, given speculation that the Eastern Coalition was comprised of many of the nations Khan was thought to have conquered that the two conflicts may be linked through causal history in much the same way as World War I and World War II. So it is unclear if there is something we do not understand, and perhaps some historians by the 23rd century connect the two wars - much as some 21st Century historians today connect WWI and WWII into one long conflict.

And given the prolonged period stated for WW3 (2026-2053) it makes sense that it wasn't an all out conflict. During the cold war everyone thought that the next world war, if it were to happen, would be over in one or two months. An all out conflict would be over - one way or the other - pretty fast. So I'd personally subscribe to the notion that "WW3" mostly was low key and local, only occasionally flaring up into something larger. Eventually it would end with some devastating nuclear exchanges.

I'm not sure how I'd fit the Eugenics Wars into this. Did it take place before 2026 (but obviously after the 1990s) or were the first years after 2026 what would be known as the Eugenics Wars?

[FireStar]

In TOS Kirk visited a world where the USA got spatted by China. The suruviors had the words of the constitution but no real understanding of it. I would say that be similar to our WWIII. It is concievable that China rises even as we fall. We also have India that is growing at a rate that makes Japan in the 1980's look anemic. The nightmare situation is if both of those governments get along and become allies againt us. What would we have to stand against such a force. Nukes the only trump card and frankly useless as both counties could easily lose 2/3 of their populationa and still be vialble as long as the educated people were safe. Sorry hard facts here. Personally the next WWIII will be with bio weapons as they are much cheaper and easier to deal with. Eugenics is a fact though not to the extent we see in Trek. Hitler tired it and so did the Soviets. It is a fact that we are even now splicing and dicing the human genome. Does anyone actually really think it is for the good? Please. It is for at best designer babies. Your little blond haired blue eyes six foot tall perfection. And before I get blasted for that it is a statistical fact that those are the characteristics sought out. Just look at your sperm bank withdawals.
So I would say it is possible for the WWIII to be caused by those thinking they are better. Men like Kahn and his augments.

[Hondafan]

I always had a problem with the whole WWIII thing. My point is with all that destruction and loss of life, I do not see how 100 years would be enough to recuperate. Yeah a lot can happen in 100 years. I dont know I just think that either the numbers are off or else Treks timeline is off.

[JadziaKathryn]

You could recover in 100 years - if somebody had the money to rebuild (I point to West Germany after WWII as my example).

Here's a thought: what if WWIII is the whole time period, 2026-2053, and fighting was going on continually - but not all in the same place? I can easily see that, but it just got lumped together.