Enlistment?

[Elessar]

Let the Vulcans stick an officer on board a Terran vessel. This makes the Vulcans happy that the Terrans won't go do something truly stupid with the ship... which means that if something does happen to Enterprise, they'll be willing to lend a helping hand. This Vulcan also won't do any harm, but the experience level that he/she would bring to the ship will be priceless.

Except that the commanding officer basically ignored every single thing said Vulcan "suggested", so the point is moot.

At first, but not later on. I specifically remember Archer taking her advice and she acting surprised about it and he making some kind of comment that he'd learned to trust her experience... somewhere before S3.

This whole argument with T'Pol totally ignores the other members of Starfleet who aren't serving aboard Enterprise. How do you think the 12 year veteran who is on the short list to make Commander is going to react when he finds out that a Vulcan joined Starfleet and was simply given the rank that he's been trying to make for years? There are only a certain number of slots for such a rank (based on Starfleet's apparent lack of ships), so suddenly, his entire career is put on hold because the brass wanted to bump a Vulcan with a questionable record ahead of him. He's going to be pissed off, and he won't be the only one. A lot of personnel in the Starfleet officer corps are going to see that as preferential treatment regardless of her qualifications, especially given how the show took great pains to point out how frustrated the humans were with their Vulcan "allies." It's naive to presume that everyone in Starfleet is going to accept this without complaint, especially given the very obvious xenophobia problem that was happening during the season wherein she received her rank of commander.

And frankly, based on the record I saw on the show, there's plenty of arguments to go around that suggest she isn't more qualified than he is, and, in fact, shouldn't be in the chain-of-command at all.

Probably the disagreement here stems more from our difference of opinion of T'Pol's command ability. Because my argument relies on an esteem of her record to support the legitimacy of an exchange program. I admit, if you don't think she deserved that distinction, then in that respect she shouldn't have been given a Starfleet rank of Commander.

As for other Starfleet officers being frustrated, though, I don't really see it mattering because the ONE thing about her funky transition from VHC to Starfleet was that she didn't change jobs and therefore it would be really difficult to argue that she stole somebody's job from them, because she already was the Enterprise's XO. Sure, maybe people would feel that way anyway, but IMO that'd be their problem, because like I said, I'd judge her competent of the job. If she was only the Science Officer and not the XO, and Trip was the XO or somebody else were, some LTCDR or CDR, up to the point before she were commissioned, and then she took his place as XO, then I think your point would be more valid, but she didn't steal anybody's job because she was already there.

And there are numerous historical instances of foreign officers being granted high commissions in a military other than their own, done in with respect to the rank and esteem they hold in their own service. Lafayette himself was actually promoted from a mere Captain to a General when he came over to assist Continental forces in the Revolutionary War, and I am sure there are other examples. But, again, I can see where you'd disagree with T'Pol falling into that category if you didn't think she was a good commander.

Let the Vulcans stick an officer on board a Terran vessel. This makes the Vulcans happy that the Terrans won't go do something truly stupid with the ship... which means that if something does happen to Enterprise, they'll be willing to lend a helping hand. This Vulcan also won't do any harm, but the experience level that he/she would bring to the ship will be priceless.

Except that the commanding officer basically ignored every single thing said Vulcan "suggested", so the point is moot.

At first, but not later on. I specifically remember Archer taking her advice and she acting surprised about it and he making some kind of comment that he'd learned to trust her experience... somewhere before S3.

[ Yeah, Tucker wasn't fantastic initially either, but he at least got better in the Big Chair as time went on, whereas T'Pol got worse.

Like I said, I disagree. This is just to make my case for why I don't think she was that bad... She had a lot of personal problems (the character assassination that often gets discussed) which lead to her having issues with being in command, say, in parts of S3, but it would be an equivalent situation to have had Tucker in command right after Xindi and expect him to function at 100% (which he wouldn't due to his personal loss). So IMO, it wasn't that she lost the ability to command, but they threw (the writers) so much OTHER stuff at her because they weren't interested in showing her as a good commander, that it took a backseat and she was made to look unstable. That's one of the things I think a solid, stable relationship with Trip would have allowed her to do, is find her center and become again the professional that she was in the early part of the show and would, again, have been a competent commander. But there are episodes where Archer was out of commission, like in "Desert Crossing" where she did take command and I don't recall anything wrong with her performance.

I know that Starfleet is not the model of REAL command authority, but let's put it this way: I don't think she did any worse in that instance, or in the others that I regretfully can't think of and list off every one of, than any other of the XO's we've seen on other ships could have done.

[Rigil Kent]

Let the Vulcans stick an officer on board a Terran vessel. This makes the Vulcans happy that the Terrans won't go do something truly stupid with the ship... which means that if something does happen to Enterprise, they'll be willing to lend a helping hand. This Vulcan also won't do any harm, but the experience level that he/she would bring to the ship will be priceless.

Except that the commanding officer basically ignored every single thing said Vulcan "suggested", so the point is moot.

At first, but not later on. I specifically remember Archer taking her advice and she acting surprised about it and he making some kind of comment that he'd learned to trust her experience... somewhere before S3.

The fact that it took so long says boatloads, doesn't it? And the fact that, even after he took her advice once or twice, he went back to ignoring her. Daedalus? For that matter, These Are The Voyages.

As for other Starfleet officers being frustrated, though, I don't really see it mattering because the ONE thing about her funky transition from VHC to Starfleet was that she didn't change jobs and therefore it would be really difficult to argue that she stole somebody's job from them, because she already was the Enterprise's XO

That argument doesn't track. Now that she is in the officer corps, it makes her eligible for different duty stations and assignments, regardless of what her current job is. By being given the grade of commander, she is now eligible for consideration as a future commanding officer for a different ship and thus the rank of captain. Given the apparent lack of ships in Starfleet, those jobs are going to be highly coveted, and the perception among the officer corps is inevitably going to be that Enterprise crew get preferential treatment. That is going to destroy morale for the officers and enlisted personnel who aren't assigned to the NX-01. Thus, her sudden and inexplicable appointment to the rank of commander is going to frustrate officers. It's human nature.

But there are episodes where Archer was out of commission, like in "Desert Crossing" where she did take command and I don't recall anything wrong with her performance.

Which is before they turned her into the sidekick and eliminated any and all chance that she would realistically hold command rank in The Seventh. That episode alone destroys any believability that Starfleet would keep her in a position of authority, and if Archer failed to report it, then he is even more negligent in his duties as commanding officer than I thought possible. She broke under pressure, and, based on that nonsense, it's not that big a surprise she cracked once more in Azati Prime since she has a record for not being able to deal with stressful situations. I guarantee you that, in any competent military or pseudo-military organization like Starfleet, a CO who finds out his XO snapped like T'Pol did in The Seventh is going to remove her from that job so fast her head will start spinning.

But I'm done with this. We're going around in circles again with this debate, and neither side is going to be swayed. You and some others think she was capable, and I wouldn't follow her on a dare, not with her track record of cracking under intense pressure. So, carry on.

[JadziaKathryn]

I also wonder if some exceptions were made and if some of the officers would have been "fast tracked" because of their specialties. I have no doubts that the crew of Enterprise, down to the poor guy who works on the waste reclamation system (I can sooooo see an Enterprise-era episode of "Dirty Jobs" covering what happens when something goes wrong), is made up of the best available people (Starfleet or civillian) in their respective fields-- if they could get them to serve aboard a starship. From her behavior first season, Hoshi doesn't strike me as someone with even a year in Starfleet under her belt, and that's okay, because she's a walking translator. There must have been a ton of communications officers with years of experience for Archer to pick, but probably none of them held a candle to Hoshi, skill-wise. Ditto for Travis-- he's so young, but being a Boomer and having so much actual starship experience was probably the main reason why Archer chose him.

Hmm, that idea with Hoshi and Travis could help explain why they're only ensigns. 'Cause really, for your very first Warp 5 vessel, you would think that you'd want at least Lt. JGs - unless people who happened to not be in Starfleet long enough to be Lt. JGs were demonstrably better qualified...

[Navigator]

That argument doesn't track. Now that she is in the officer corps, it makes her eligible for different duty stations and assignments, regardless of what her current job is. By being given the grade of commander, she is now eligible for consideration as a future commanding officer for a different ship and thus the rank of captain. Given the apparent lack of ships in Starfleet, those jobs are going to be highly coveted, and the perception among the officer corps is inevitably going to be that Enterprise crew get preferential treatment. That is going to destroy morale for the officers and enlisted personnel who aren't assigned to the NX-01. Thus, her sudden and inexplicable appointment to the rank of commander is going to frustrate officers. It's human nature.

I don't want to say this to stir up things, but Rigil is dead on. When T'Pol got her commission, there was only one commissioned NX class, and probably under 20 of earlier classes. It is possible you could have fit the entire officer corps in a small high school auditorium. Everybody would know everybody else. It would be a TIGHT group - not one open to new blood.

Also, going back to the Merchant Marine theory, one wonders if there are only four commissioned ranks below Admiral - Captain, Commander, Lieutenant, and Ensign and that the ranks are totally tied to the job.

The underlying problem to all of this is that the owners of the franchise seemed to have a singular lack of knowledge at how any hierarchical organization would work.

Were I picking a combat commander out of the whole ST universe, in descending order, it would be
Tucker (Rigil's version)
Mal Reynolds (whoops! wrong group)
Worf

[Rigil Kent]

The underlying problem to all of this is that the owners of the franchise seemed to have a singular lack of knowledge at how any hierarchical organization would work.

Do not trust to use logic with Trek. It has forsaken these lands.

[JadziaKathryn]

Do not trust to use logic with Trek. It has forsaken these lands.

Which is somewhat ironic, given Vulcans' devotion to it.

[Rigil Kent]

But, if you go by every single episode of Trek, the Vulcans are always wrong and you should always follow your heart or some such bunk. Thus, logic has forsaken these lands.

[Elessar]

But, if you go by every single episode of Trek, the Vulcans are always wrong and you should always follow your heart or some such bunk. Thus, logic has forsaken these lands.

I don't think Tuvok's always wrong. He was less character-assassinated than the others. As was Spock.

The only thing I'll say in regard to the previous discussion was that the NX isn't the only starship out there... Why is it being treated that way? Of all people, Rigil, I'm sure that you realized while writing the Romulan War that there had to be dozens of those Iceland, Neptune, and other "less-than-warp-4-capable" class starships like the 3 we saw in the beginning of ... I think Borderland. I don't think we ever get a number for crew compliment of those, but I'm betting it reaches up to 20-40. If you have a command staff of 5 for each of those and there's a dozen, that's sixty, and those are all the positions being vied for. Then you've got the Mars station, the orbital platforms, the Lunar bases, Alpha Centauri, a Starfleet presence on Vulcan, and probably a Starfleet post on Vega Colony. Those are all places where command personnel - not starship captains maybe, but officers seeking space assignments, can go. Naturally, yes, the Enterprise is the end-all, be-all of existence for the aspiring officer. But it's not like it's the only ship in space that they can try and get an assignment on. It's not as if every single person who commissions is watching the Enterprise rosters to see the moment someone takes leave or gets injured or killed. The officer corps, given all of those assignments and not just the Enterprise and Earth-side operations, is probably larger than you'd think.

I really think that one Commander position aboard what is admittedly the only NX-class vessel in service at the time is not quite as conspicuous as its being made out to be.

If people personally knew her well enough to form the opinion that she's not competent, then maybe. But how many people know T'Pol that well? I'm not pissing on your opinion that she's a bad commander, I just don't honestly think that many people in Starfleet who are complete strangers to T'Pol, would really get pissed. Maybe a few guys who are up-and-coming LTCDRs or CDRs and were waiting, around the end of the Xindi mission, for T'Pol to jump ship back to Vulcan so they could put their names in the hat and try to grab the XO position, but I wouldn't figure it'd be the entire officer corps. I just think that's overstating the case. The other thing is, if it were me, and I were standing by around the time the Enterprise pulled into dock after the Xindi mission and hoping I might get a chance at that XO spot, I'd assume Tucker was gonna get it anyway... But I'll concede an agreement that at least some people would be disappointed to find that the XO spot's not going to be opening up after all.

I don't really follow why it matters that she's now eligible for other duty/station assignments and is therefore going to take someone's spot somewhere unless you're operating from the belief that she just absolutely, positively doesn't deserve a Starfleet commission at all. Because the only way that it can be percieved as negative that she's going to take a spot somewhere - just like anybody else is - is if you think she just doesn't plain deserve to wear Starfleet pips at all. And that's fine, that's your opinion. But barring that, the rest of the officer corps ought to be familiar enough with the historical precedent of exchange officers not to freak out when she does get those pips. That's just my opinion. But still, I really think all these rationalizations (both of ours) stem from whether we think she's competent or not.

[Elessar]

Other good combat commanders: The kid in charge of Red Squad on the Valiant, Riker, Data, Jellico, Shelby, Tuvok, Sisko wasn't bad, and certainly Dukat.

That wasn't in any order though..

[Rigil Kent]

To which I quote the 20 year Navy veteran. I'm pretty sure that he's got a better idea of how these sort of things work than I, the ex-infantry guy, or you, the college student who isn't yet a Marine.

I don't want to say this to stir up things, but Rigil is dead on. When T'Pol got her commission, there was only one commissioned NX class, and probably under 20 of earlier classes. It is possible you could have fit the entire officer corps in a small high school auditorium. Everybody would know everybody else. It would be a TIGHT group - not one open to new blood.

Bolding mine.

And I'm not treating the NX-01 as the only duty assignment. I'm simply basing my argument on what we've seen on the show. I believe it was the end of Storm Front where you see the largest number of Earth starships in orbit around Terra, and, frankly, there weren't that many to begin with. Given the known threat that Earth was facing, and how long it's been since the first Xindi attack, it's next to impossible to believe that Starfleet Command hadn't recalled all of their ships to act as Homeworld Defense. Using that simple bit of logic, I extrapolated the number of command-level officers.

And it's not that high. I had to invent an entire fleet just to make Starfleet have a snowball's chance of surviving the first months of the Earth-Romulan War.

As to Tuvok, I seem to recall CoffeeCat reviewing an episode of VOY where Tuvok was in charge and was written as a complete incompetent.

[CX]

The kid in charge of Red Squad on the Valiant

You mean the one that tried to do something over his head as a cadet on a training ship that got all but one of his crew killed and his shp destroyed? Not the best example of a good leader.

[pookha]

i doubt very much if all the ships were at earth because starfleet and earth had interests scattered.
there are alpha centuri and the colonies, the earth cargo freighters .
frankly we dont have a clue how many ships there were and wonder where that 20 number came from.

what they may have had is a scarcity of qualified command personal for ships that were recently built.
that whole thing about shenanodah and duvall for instance.
i do wonder if the intrepid class were an in between ship that went faster then warp three , a stepping stone to the nx and if they had just bought a lot of them into service.

something else that seems to have been forgotten.
most wont know of certain aspects of azati prime but it would have been known that tpol was in command when the sphere system was destroyed.

as for tpol not being able to handle the pressure in 7th things are a lot more complicated then that.
to me it seemed more like the damage done to her by tolaris and later the chemical torture done to her by the suliaban caused the blockage done by the vulcan ritual to come violently unexpectedly undone.

she was getting hammered by memories that seemed to be sense loaded to the point there were over powering the present.
but in the end she does over come and carries on.
and the assertion that vulcans are always shown to be wrong is just silly and ignores a lot of not just tos but voyager and even enterprise.

and sometimes especially in tos both humans and spock could be shown to be right about certain aspects of a situation.

[Rigil Kent]

i doubt very much if all the ships were at earth because starfleet and earth had interests scattered.
there are alpha centuri and the colonies, the earth cargo freighters .

With respect, they made it a point of establishing that cargo freighters were on their own out there in the black (ENT: Fortunate Son), so arguing that Starfleet ships were out there defending them flies in the face of canon. And given that the homeworld was going to be under attack, it's only logical to presume that Starfleet would actually ... I dunno ... defend the homeworld.

But that'd be a first in Trek.

I'd comment further, but since all that's going to happen if I continue posting here is that I'll piss someone off, I'm backing away from this thread and will only respond to comments directed to me.

[pookha]

and in fortunate son we saw a starfleet ship go to the aid of one.
and that was in period before earth was attacked by an outside force.
i am not saying every ship would have an escort but if the cargo was considered vital some might .
and would it have been wise for all the ships stationed in sol system to have come running to earth when the weapon appered in case other enemy ships appeared else where in the system.
wouldnt some of them kept position at jupiter station and mars for instance,

[Navigator]

frankly we dont have a clue how many ships there were and wonder where that 20 number came from.

Pretty much a guess. It's all a matter of resources. You've got a planet that went through a nuclear war approximately 100 years ago. The resources and the political will are not going to be there to build a fleet. Also with Vulcan ships traveling at warp 7, there is not going to be much enthusiasm to build a lot of slow ships; there would be too much urge to wait in case of a breakthrough. Another hint that the fleet isn't big is that only three or four ships come out to meet Enterprise.

So then for the purpose of argument, let's double the numbers and suppose there are 20 Neptune class and 20 Iceland class. With the big E that gives you 41 ships. The big E probably had another 2 or 3 JOs whom we never saw, so that gives a wardroom of 10. The other classes being smaller may have an officer complement of six, but for the sake of argument lets say seven. So that gives you under 300 shipboard billets, captain and below. If you triple that number to account for "shore" billets (space stations, attache' billets, etc), you still come up with an officer community of less than a thousand. With about 120 Captains and about 180 Commanders, tit's going to be a tight community.

While this is all somewhat like discussing how many spirits can dance on the head of a pin, it's still interesting.

One question, other than his being a test pilot for NX-A, does anybody remember Archer's previous assignments?

Also one thing that always irritated me (which is really bad thread drift), was that all ship commanders were Captains. Janeway should be a Commander.

This whole discussion needs pizza.