The never-ending dilemma of reviews...

[Kotik]

Hi there, folks

Yesterday weeble made me aware of an author on ff.net, whom he suspects of lifting ideas from other authors. While the author actually develops a not too shabby story-line, it is rather obvious that he/she uses a rather eclectic mix that uses quite a lot of weeble, some Transwarp, a pinch of Balck-n-Blue und a bit of Kotik, without giving credit to any of them.

The thing that struck me the most, though is that although the author claims to be from the US of A, the writing is abysmal at best when it comes to grammar and spelling. Now, I'm pretty sure that my post probably has enough errors in it to have English teachers all over the world looking for sharp objects or ropes, but I can at least claim to be a bloody Kraut as an excuse.

This is a review, I left for that story:

The story is really interesting, if a bit mary sue-ish. The almighty Constitution has a bit of a deus-ex-machina feel about it. Things are going too smooth and Super!Trip is a bit too flawless.

I have to stomp my foot on the ground, however. This chapter was nigh-on unreadable. Sentences like that:

"It would be a boon, sir, but I need don't want to spend the next three weeks making my way to a Starbase to get a new warp core, as well make repairs," said Archer.

sound like it was written by a Nigerian office temp with a bad attitude. Just try reading that out loud. Household tip. When you have finished a chapter, just read it out loud. You'll catch most of the word errors that way.

Now, while some might throw darts at a Kotik picture now for the undiplomatic choice of words, I ask you to bear with me. There are several things that baffle me about this story:

1. It has 35 mostly raving reviews and nobody seems to be bothered by the fact that it is written on the language level of an 8 year old. (Although that may be a wee bit unfair towards 8 year olds)

2. Not a single review is by any penhandle I know. Usually people like Alelou comment on a lot of stories, so do I take it that they just gave up on it early on and went by the maxime 'If you don't have anything good to say...'

3. Why don't people tell authors in a review if there are things that are wrong? My latest draft for "Slopes of Andoria" came back with a veritable (if very polite) slating by my beta-reader, which I'm very grateful for, because it prevented me from publishing something that was wrong on many levels. But reader reviews are always mainly positive or non-existent. When my 76.000 words story has 30 reviews and Alelou's equally sized one has 700, I can well deduce, who the better writer is, but what I miss is, that people don't tell me what they missed in or didn't like about my story.

So my question: Shouldn't we be more honest in reader reviews? How am I supposed to improve my writing if people don't tell me what's wrong in the first place? Why not write a purely critical review? If the author is too easily hurt by criticism, maybe it would be better to not publish in the first place

Of course there are limits to that, too. I one was called a pervert over something as banal as having a character appear nude in a story, but I'm not bothered about stark raving mad religious lunatics, I'm thinking about people telling me, if I've gone over the top with characters' reactions an/or effed up story arcs.

[putaro]

Well, I find writing positive reviews hard enough that writing a negative one is way more trouble than it's worth. You never know what you're going to get back, either. I'm willing to take constructive criticism but not everyone is. I also worry about unloading on some fourteen year old somewhere.

[Cogito]

2. Not a single review is by any penhandle I know. Usually people like Alelou comment on a lot of stories, so do I take it that they just gave up on it early on and went by the maxime 'If you don't have anything good to say...'

I recognize the story you're referring to. In my case I decided to make my comments in private, but I have tried my best to make them supportive and constructive.

[Alelou]

Did you read through all the reviews? I think I did comment on that story at least once or twice, with a strong suggestion that he get a beta or read more carefully. I've been skimming through it myself from time to time, since it has its moments and doesn't go tooooo out of character, but since he doesn't respond and just doesn't improve, I couldn't be bothered to review again (though some weirdness with Trip's "little engineer" sorely tempted me to recently). I tend to assume that his fans are either his pals or non-native English speakers who don't notice the glaring errors and bad usage and just enjoy the plot, or are just really hard up for new Ent fic, like I am.

And no, I wouldn't call that story plagiarism, though it clearly is similar in some ways to some of the authors you've mentioned. Plagiarism is not a word to bandy about lightly, if you ask me. I would also be very, very careful before accusing anyone of the dreaded Mary Sue label, which I also don't see being particularly an issue with that one. That's a label that's quite hurtful and easy to apply unfairly, and hell, even if it is a Mary Sue, do you really need to say it? People who write those are often children or teenagers new to fanfic. They really don't need to be bludgeoned with that label that they clearly don't understand (or they wouldn't have written it that way in the first place).

In any case, the story I think you're referring to seems to have disappeared now, so perhaps you hit a nerve. Which, if true, was no favor to the people who were enjoying it.

Sometimes a story has annoying writing problems but is compelling enough in other ways to keep me hooked. "Infinite Diversities" falls into that category, once I struggled past the awful first chapter. Well, I still can't help telling the guy to please Gawd read it out loud or get a beta, but he clearly doesn't care. And hey, that's up to him -- the story is still very interesting and occasionally brilliant. I could never favorite it, though, because of its problems.

Unless I accidentally did. The new system at ff.net is kind of weird with default settings.

I do like that you can search by reviews and favorites now. I've been happily using the reviews sort to find some fairly readable old stories I would never have noticed otherwise.

[Kotik]

In any case, the story I think you're referring to seems to have disappeared now, so perhaps you hit a nerve. Which, if true, was no favor to the people who were enjoying it.

Don't worry, the story will be back within a day or two. It's actually the second time this has happened. I wrote almost exactly the same comments - urging the author to get a beta reader (a suggestion that was duly ignored) on a different story of the same author some weeks ago. It went offline and came back two days later with almost all the errors still there any my comments deleted. I actually feel sort of bad, being a German telling an American that she/he is bad at writing his/her native language, but if I can say that the published material has more errors than my unbeta'ed drafts (and that isn't actually exaggerated), I think it is justified to say something.

On the topic of 'plagiarism'. If you read my comments before the story was taken offline, you'll know that I stated that there is nothing wrong in taking inspiration from other people's work. I used elements of your season 1 missing scenes in my work, I uses Dinah's Torok (with her permission), I used BnB's clan concept and Transwarp's clan name of T'Pol's, but I also gave credit to these people in the disclaimers, which this particular author has not and I consider that not the best of styles.

[dialee]

Kotik,

I’m really glad you begin this topic and referring to the same author and stories too.

I’ve been reading a lot of this author’s stories recently since he was a new find for me and I really like his stories. The stories were varied enough with an eclectic plot mixture. There was a lot of action, adventure, and romance. The Trip and T’Pol aspect did not overwhelm the story.

The negatives of the stories were strong but not anything that could not improve over time or a really good beta such as the grammatical and syntax errors that keep popping up in his stories. I said as much in my first and only review I gave in the first story I read.

However, when he idiotically repeated the same plot mistake regarding the Harbinger story, I wanted to blast him before I counted to ten and breathed slowly. There were spirited discussions on this board and elsewhere concerning the sheer stupidity of having a Starfleet lieutenant commanding a Major MACO.

This brings me to my real question and dilemma, what is an appropriate level of criticism in reviews? I think I have always been fairly even handed in my reviews: usually some positive on how I enjoyed the story because of the flow and plot and then the negative, usually grammatical, syntax, and language (word) usage errors. However, I really lose it when an author seemingly ignores comments on his stories and blithely ignores plot errors, well…what can you say after that…

This is not a 14-year-old writer who writes and wants to improve. If you look at the biography, he claims to publish and sell on Amazon. There is such a title and author on Amazon that he referenced in his ff.net page.

[Kotik]

Thanks for the kind words, dialee Offering criticism in reviews is something I'd really appreciate in my stories, but it also is a very thin ice to walk on. People either tell me that I'm the best thing since Jesus Christ or they don't review at all. The only people offering honest and constructive criticism are Distracted, Alelou and Transwarp.

Of course I'm a bad example. I'm probably the world's most useless diplomat. I speak my mind but usually way too direct and I mostly end up hurting people, but I'd really appreciate that people would tell me what they DIDN'T like about my stories. Hearing what they did like is always a nice thing, but I also want to improve, but I can't do that if people don't tell me what I'm doing wrong.

[Weeble]

Dialee,

I think, well at least occasionally no matter, that over time we all decide just how to review stories. I have been over critical at times and under critical at times. As far as receiving comments, i welcome them all. My writing, if it is any better at all, is because of FIRST those who willingly devote their time and effort and some of their precious sanity to directly improving the stuff I poop out there. Secondly, always remember, it is never the beta's fault. When the reviews come in, the story belongs to the author.
In this case over at that other site I sent some PM's about plot lines. I finally sent Kotik a PM 'cause I was frustrated and well, we both like good beer, Pilsner Urquell, never feel you need to hold back if you feel I deserve a case or two.
I have infringed on other authors and freely admit it. When I have been reminded that I may have not properly given accreditation I have tried to correct the omission. That simple respect did not happen in this case.
Where was I, oh yeah. I think we all form our reviews based on:
1: whether we are just enjoying the ride
2: whether the author will listen
3: whether the author will react poorly.

It takes time and a relationship with the folks here at Tri-silk to know how to properly critique. Plus I am often reluctant to get to picky because I am happy to see new stuff to enjoy. How bout you?

><((((º>

[Alelou]

Well, if the story goes back up, that's good. I don't see how he can delete reviews, though? I thought that was only possible with unsigned reviews. Wouldn't he have to give up ALL his reviews to get rid of a signed review?

I have also been quite flummoxed to see that this guy claims to publish other stuff as well. Who would actually pay for it? But then anyone can self-publish these days, just as anyone can put up fanfic.

Maybe you guys know his sources better than I do, but I just see a tendency, common among many Trip fans (cough - especially guys) of making him the unquestioned hero, correcting every perceived weakness in his relationship with T'Pol and Archer and Starfleet, etc. I'm going to assume that Rigil did it first and best, though other authors you mentioned do it fine, too. With this guy it has felt derivative and cliched, but can you really say he's taken this from this and that from that? Maybe he's just absorbed a general trend in his reading and now it's coming back out in his own Super!Trip fantasy, complete with his own uniquely tortured English.

For example, we all call her Anna Hess as if we actually knew her first name -- but that was a Rigil invention originally, wasn't it? Isn't it possible, also, that people who want above all else to give Trip greater status tend to have their plots run in the same directions? There's a reason ST always made people sign releases before they would read their spec scripts -- ST stories from different people tend to have similar elements, and we're all very prone to becoming convinced that "Hey! That was MY idea."

I could be wrong, though. It's been a long time since I read Endeavour.

[dialee]

Weeble,

Oh, I agree. We all eventually find our own level of equanimity of action and words in how much we want to send out to the world. I can usually accept the world in which an author creates in their writing, be it AU or not since it is their story. However, I do ask that the writer be aware of the general ecosystem i.e. today’s military structure and protocol if you’re writing about a paramilitary organization which Starfleet is.

In regard to the perception of plagiarism of some aspects of the plots, I don’t see it as an issue. I know a lot of people on this board would disagree with me and I can understand their outrage to some degree since I am not a writer. But all said and done. Who was it that said, “There is nothing new under the sun.” There are only so many themes in life and literature. What may be different is slight tweaking of the treatment of how writers’ present their views to the world. I do agree with acknowledging the original author’s credit for such specifics as those listed by Kotik in the references listed above.

Back to your original question, it is hard to gauge how much to put in. I mean, I have literally had writers whining that maybe they shouldn’t continue their stories if it wasn’t any good (and the story was good and I thought I made it clear but she didn’t take that part) to ones who actually incorporated suggestions.

One would have thought the writer whose stories inspired this particular comment topic should take criticism better than he has since he claimed to be a professional with published and selling works on Amazon. I noticed that all of his Enterprise stories except for the most recent one, has been taken off ff.net. The one he kept on the board still has the same problems.

[putaro]

So, unless we intend to name and shame that poor person, I'd recommend we move any more comments on that story to PM's because it's getting pretty obvious who it is.

On to the more central question, which is how to get/give good feedback on writing. I don't think reviews are really the place to do it. It's too public and it's too late. How about a workshop forum?

[panyasan]

I hardly would say so in a review, but the misspellings of names really blocks me for enjoying (and reading and reviewing) a story. One story had a John Archer (instead of Jon). The story was good, but the John-factor annoyed me so much I didn't finish it.
I can live with grammar mistakes - I try to avoid them as much as I can in my own writing and really dislike when one is overlooked - but as long it doesn't get me out of story, I can live with it.

As for honesty in reviews: it depends on the author. Mostly I commented on the events in the story, sometime I make suggestions for improvement for their writing. It all depends on who is writing the story and if I have reviewed that writer before and you know that writer and if he/she is open for it.
Besides, if you only make one negative remark and never review after that - what has happen to me - IMHO it doesn't help the writer further.

[Kotik]

Putaro wins the prize for bestest idea, ever - a shiny new horse !



erm, no...



no, this one neither... ah there it is



Ok, clowning aside. I think the idea of a workshop forum is absolutely brilliant. It would certainly help people improve with their writing. As it is currently, most of us have a beta-reader, who gives our drafts the good ol' once-over. Without knowing exact numbers, I'd say Cogito is probably the busiest beta-reader right now with weeble, myself and other feeding him drafts, Distracted is probably a close second, mainly because Eireann can and does write faster than other people can read That's all jolly well, but leaves one potential problem. Intended or not, the end result will be mixture of writing styles of the author and the beta reader. Mind, you, I'm not saying that this is a bad thing. I think there are worse things that can happen to a story than being influenced by Distracted, Alelou and others.

Fanfic writing is probably one of the things, where more is better. I've written a lot of stuff over the past three years, but I only ever had one single chapter beta-ed by two people - the first chapter of "Dawn Of the Federation" and it turned out the best chapter I ever produced. Ok, so now I spent two paragraphs for convolutedly explaining that a workshop forum is a great idea, because you could potentially get input from more than one beta-reader.

'nother thing...

Maybe you guys know his sources better than I do, but I just see a tendency, common among many Trip fans (cough - especially guys) of making him the unquestioned hero, correcting every perceived weakness in his relationship with T'Pol and Archer and Starfleet, etc. I'm going to assume that Rigil did it first and best, though other authors you mentioned do it fine, too. With this guy it has felt derivative and cliched, but can you really say he's taken this from this and that from that? Maybe he's just absorbed a general trend in his reading and now it's coming back out in his own Super!Trip fantasy, complete with his own uniquely tortured English.

Well, it is pretty common to absorb other ideas and come up with similar ideas. In my skull there's a huge storage of stories. Pretty much every story on HoT and TriS that has more than one chapter. I remember bits and pieces from stories that I dodn't even remember the name or author of. Such a huge storage is bound to influence your work. You named a prime example: Anna Hess. Most people use it and actually I once saw a story with her having a different first name and it felt weird. Another popular one is Malcolm/Hoshi as a secondary 'ship, which is part of dozens of stories. These are things that 'just feel right', so people use it without knowing, who actually introduced it.
With other things it is pretty clear. If you have an eldest mother dictatoring about in your story, credits are due to BnB, because it was introduced in "The Road once Travelled" series.

On the topic of Super!Trip. I think Alelou got a point there. Trip usually gets away too hero-ish in male penned stories. I know that I've been guilty of that, too. My explanation is that many guys just felt offended by the portrayal of Trip in the series. In seasons one and two he was often abused for comic relief. I'm still cringing about the indecisive dolt, he was portrayed as in "The Seventh". Later in season four he was reduced to a spineless pitiful doormat, taking crap endlessly and still coming back, begging for more brown stuff. I think that causes a sort of 'have-to-fix' reflex in most guys, the same way that many people felt compelled to write stories that fix *the_abomination*.

This is another point, where a Workshop Forum could help. My usual beta-reader is Cogito, a fellow carrier of the Y chromosome. A workshop Forum would potentially provide female input, too and would therefore fix instances of Super!Trip, Hero!Malcolm or Super!Archer.

[putaro]

You named a prime example: Anna Hess. Most people use it and actually I once saw a story with her having a different first name and it felt weird.

It's funny how some ideas catch and other do not. I've seen quite a few different first names for Trip's mother and quite a few different first names for Admiral Gardner.

So, how do we set up a private forum? I'm all for letting anyone who would like to join, but I do feel more comfortable if any criticism isn't available for EVERYONE to read.

[Kotik]

You named a prime example: Anna Hess. Most people use it and actually I once saw a story with her having a different first name and it felt weird.

It's funny how some ideas catch and other do not. I've seen quite a few different first names for Trip's mother and quite a few different first names for Admiral Gardner.

I think it is also a question of frequency. There are a lot of stories in which the Tucker parents are a prominent part, while I only know few stories, where Anna Hess has more than a marginal role. (Hess+Kov by BnB, The Captives by panyasan, Virtual season 6 by Distracted spring to mind)

So, how do we set up a private forum? I'm all for letting anyone who would like to join, but I do feel more comfortable if any criticism isn't available for EVERYONE to read.

That's a job for the lads and lassies in red. Usually it is done by creating a sub-forum that is access-restricted to members of a particular user group. The admins can add users to such a group and as soon as you are a member of that group, you'll have access to that forum.