Wonky Science: Hybrids in Startrek

[WarpGirl]

Okay since Memory-Alpha might be giving out viruses I went to ST.com Apparently T'Pol is considered "Pre-Federation Starfleet" it says this...

Spock was the first Vulcan to enlist in the Federation Starfleet

If you want to risk Memory-Alpha to confirm I think that would be a good idea. However, I'm on my parents laptop and I don't need my father throwing it across the house if I mess it up. That would really ruin my day.

[Kevin Thomas Riley]

^ Despite what st.com says, that's not canon per se. They might just regurgitate what fans have come to believe (same goes for Memory Alpha, which I don't dare touch at the moment).

I mean in what specific episode or movie it says that Spock was the first.

[WarpGirl]

Okay okay I know there's an episode where Kirk mentions it. I'll find it. Jee whiz the reasons why those sites exist is not everyone has the money to buy box sets you know. And I doubt you'd accept the answer was on the ST trivia game card (even though the episode was refferenced. I just can't think of it off the top of my head. You just like to make me work hard and freak out!

[Silverbullet]

Makes sense that T'Pol was pre federation since Archer had not created the Federation or even tried to until the Abomination. Must have taken a few years too.

SB

[marchale]

but since eye color is controlled by a single gene that has multiple alleles, it's impossible for a brown eyed woman to give birth to a blue eyed baby (or at least one that stays blue eyed longer than about 6 months) unless she also has blue eyes somewhere in her ancestry and is heterozygous for the trait.

(Ahh, sorry for this interuption on the trek talk here folks) - but Dis, I hope you don't mind if I ask you to explain to me just what "heterozygous" means, as I kind of freaked out when I read what you said there because my ex-fiance was a half-breed (with a white father and a native American mother) and he had blue eyes, do you think maybe Rick was adopted and never knew it? I'm just wondering because he told me that was just extremely rare among half-breeds. BTW, my cousins are half-breeds too (also with a white father and native American mom), but they at least all have brown eyes and look pretty indian like Cher does (who is also a half breed), Rick looked more like a pretty well tanned white guy who might be part something else too, but it's odd - my dad (who was only 1/8th Canadian Indian) looked more indian than Rick ever did, Rick was even hairy chested and had to shave, which is something that is also very rare among half breeds, he said. Anyway, I was just curious if you think he was either adopted or if its just that his mom wasn't as full blooded Sioux as he claimed she was.

[WarpGirl]

het·er·o·zy·gous
   [het-er-uh-zahy-guhs] Show IPA

adjective Biology .
1.
having dissimilar pairs of genes for any hereditary characteristic.

Going by my high school biology about the blue-eyed thing. I have brown eyes, my dad has brown eyes my mom has hazel. Now here's where things get tricky... My Dad's father, has Hazel eyes my mom's father had Hazel eyes, and my Mom's mom has Blue.

So both my parents have recessive blue eye genes, meaning I have them too. Theoretically, if I married a man with blue eyes (yes please God) my baby could have blue eyes, (if I could have kids)...

So I'm thinking that what Dis was saying the only way for a woman to have a baby with blue eyes is if she had the recessive blue eye gene and her husband had blue eyes. If she doesn't have the gene, then it doesn't matter if hubby has blue eyes, the baby will have the recessive gene.

Of course it's been 11 years since high school bio and I could have completely screwed this up.

[marchale]

het·er·o·zy·gous
   [het-er-uh-zahy-guhs] Show IPA

adjective Biology .
1.
having dissimilar pairs of genes for any hereditary characteristic.

Going by my high school biology about the blue-eyed thing. I have brown eyes, my dad has brown eyes my mom has hazel. Now here's where things get tricky... My Dad's father, has Hazel eyes my mom's father had Hazel eyes, and my Mom's mom has Blue.

So both my parents have recessive blue eye genes, meaning I have them too. Theoretically, if I married a man with blue eyes (yes please God) my baby could have blue eyes, (if I could have kids)...

So I'm thinking that what Dis was saying the only way for a woman to have a baby with blue eyes is if she had the recessive blue eye gene and her husband had blue eyes. If she doesn't have the gene, then it doesn't matter if hubby has blue eyes, the baby will have the recessive gene.

Of course it's been 11 years since high school bio and I could have completely screwed this up.

Thanks for explaining that. Well, I have no idea what color eyes Rick's dad's were - he just told me his dad was white and his mom was indian, but I never met his parents (they live way up in northern Minnesota on the Red Lake Indian Reservation up near Canada). But my uncle (who's children are half breeds) has green eyes, though their kids all took after their mom in looking pretty indian, kinda like Mona does but just not quite as much since they are only half indian.

[Distracted]

As Warpgirl said, it's most likely that both of his parents had a blue-eyed ancestor somewhere and that his mother was heterozygous for brown eye color. Heterozygous means that a person has two different alleles for the same trait, one from each parent. In the case of a dominant trait the person shows evidence only of the dominant allele. For example, a person with brown eyes can either have one allele (gene) for brown eyes and one for blue (heterozygous) OR they can have two alleles for brown eyes (homozygous). You can't tell by looking at them which one it is. A blue-eyed person must have two alleles for blue eyes (homozygous) because blue eye color is recessive.

When people have kids, each parent gives one allele to the child. So two blue-eyed people could never have a brown-eyed baby since they only have 4 blue eyed alleles between them, but a blue eyed person could marry a brown eyed person who has one allele for brown and one for blue (heterozygous) and there's a fifty percent chance that their child would be blue-eyed. The brown eyed ones would all be heterozygous. If a blue eyed person marries a homozygous brown eyed person all of the children will be heterozygous for brown eyes.

Interestingly enough, there's a 25% chance for blue eyes in the offspring of two heterozygous brown eyed people, so sometimes blue eyes will skip several generations in a brown eyed family and then just show up for no apparent reason.

[WarpGirl]

You mean I still got highschool bio right? Oh Dis you just made my week. So theoretically, if my parents had the 2 extra kids my mom wanted they could have blue eyes because both my parents have the recessive gene. Well I'm glad they didn't I'd hate to be jealous of a sib's eyes. I always wanted blue eyes.

[Silverbullet]

As I said it has been 60 years since I studied this but always thought that a blue eyed father and a blure eyed mother could only have a blue eyed baby.

That a blue eyed father and a brown eyed mother could have a blue eyed, brown eed or hazel eyed baby. Brown eyed father and brown eyed mother only a brown eyed baby. However, my daughter has informed me I am wrong and she studied bio just a few years ago in College.

Like Blood types. always though a type O and a type O could only have a type O baby. Type A and a Type A only a type A. Type B and a type B only a type B. A type A and a type B either a type A baby, type B baby or a AB baby. Wrong again.

SB

[Distracted]

Actually, you're mostly right, SB. You just didn't take into account the fact that you can't tell by looking if a brown eyed person has an unexpressed trait for blue eyes. Blood types are similar since O's are always "O,O" but A's can be either "A,A" or "A,O", same for B's, and AB is always AB. You can see how that might make things more complicated. I wish I knew how to do Mendelian tables here, but I don't. It would be much easier to explain that way.

Anyway, I guess the bottom line here is that it's possible for TnT's offspring to have blue eyes only if T'Pol has an unexpressed trait for blue eye color.

[WarpGirl]

Well T'Pol has Hazel eyes, and there are Vulcans with blue eyes, V'Lar, and Surak for starters. And I just checked at Trekcore. T'Les has grey. So baby Elizabeth having blue eyes is entirely possible.

[Cogito]

Anyway, I guess the bottom line here is that it's possible for TnT's offspring to have blue eyes only if T'Pol has an unexpressed trait for blue eye color.

Given the leap of faith needed to assume that the rules for human genetics would apply to a vulcan/human hybrid, isn't it possible that a human gene that is recessive among humans could be dominant compared to a Vulcan gene?

[WarpGirl]

Well, even in the same family all sorts of traits can come out. I mean one of my best friends has a white father and an African American mother. Her skin is like a very dark tan, with very curly black hair. Her sister has skin like milk and very curly auburn hair. Her brother has darker skin. So there are no sure bets.

But T'Pol does have blue eyes somewhere in her family based on her eyes and her mother.

[marchale]

As Warpgirl said, it's most likely that both of his parents had a blue-eyed ancestor somewhere and that his mother was heterozygous for brown eye color. Heterozygous means that a person has two different alleles for the same trait, one from each parent. In the case of a dominant trait the person shows evidence only of the dominant allele. For example, a person with brown eyes can either have one allele (gene) for brown eyes and one for blue (heterozygous) OR they can have two alleles for brown eyes (homozygous). You can't tell by looking at them which one it is. A blue-eyed person must have two alleles for blue eyes (homozygous) because blue eye color is recessive.

When people have kids, each parent gives one allele to the child. So two blue-eyed people could never have a brown-eyed baby since they only have 4 blue eyed alleles between them, but a blue eyed person could marry a brown eyed person who has one allele for brown and one for blue (heterozygous) and there's a fifty percent chance that their child would be blue-eyed. The brown eyed ones would all be heterozygous. If a blue eyed person marries a homozygous brown eyed person all of the children will be heterozygous for brown eyes.

Interestingly enough, there's a 25% chance for blue eyes in the offspring of two heterozygous brown eyed people, so sometimes blue eyes will skip several generations in a brown eyed family and then just show up for no apparent reason.

Well, thanks for explaining that too, I appreciate that. I'm guessing by that, that his mom had a white ancestor with blue eyes in her heritage somewhere, just like my great, great grandmother was Canadian Indian.