Mary-Sue/Gary-Stu What Are They? How Can They Be Avoided?

[Silverbullet]

First off, no one in Star Trek has died because of not going through Pon Farr. Tuvok, in Voyager" aid a strong mind could meditate through it. Spock turned over that female of his to the other guy, returned to Enterprise and he did not go through his Pon Farr, he lived. T'Pol (In that stupid episode, bounty) was sedated and she did not die. So apparently those who go through Pon Farr are not in ortal danger if they don't fulfill it. The children being half Human would have even a lesser chance of death.

I think that Trip might go along with his sons being betrothed but not his little girl. (a female is always daddys little girl no matter how old she is)

You may be right about t'Pol giving in to Trip 9 times out of 10, I don't know, But that may be the Vulcan way. The vulcan society always seemed like it was male dominated. So a wife would put her husbands wishes ahead of hers.


Always believed that betrothal at such a young age was a male orignated custom. On Earth it was. Women were used as pawns and giving a female in betrothal was one way of forming a political alliance. Females were never consulted on the matter. They were often gift warpped and sent off to join a Harem somewhere.

ACtually as far as T'Pol be a stu she should have been more of one. She was stonger than the average male on Earth due to Vulcans stronger gravity. She was faster than a human also because of Vulcans gravity. She supposedly was highly trained in the Martial Arts of Vuclan. She had her Nerve Pinch. So, why is it she didn't kick some major Ass in the series?

In "Chosen realm" she tries to wrestle a man from her station and he throwns her off easily but there was no indication that the people following the Chosen Realm were stronger than the average human.

In Terra Prime and Demons she could have overpowered the guards or even Paxton when she was alone with him but she allowed herself to be drug around by the guards with no attempt at trying a nerve pinch on them grabbing their weapon and go looking for Trip and the baby. I the Andorian incident there was a time or two she could have overpowered a Anddorian but didn't even try.

SB

[WarpGirl]

Okay SB I refuse to get into an arguement about Pon farr. This is not the place for it. I was only using it as an illustration. But you should know that Vulcan society is matriarchical.

As for T'Pol not using her "super strength" and not beating up all the bad guys single handedly... Aside from Spock and Tolaris NO VULCAN has done that.

[Silverbullet]

But she could have. Nothing I have seen or read ever indicated a Vulcan was pacific. That one could not fight a bad guy or use his/her strength to get out of a tight spot. What is the use of giving a character those attributes and not use them? Archer on occasion whomped Crap out of bad guys or someone who got in his way. For Trip it was iffy. If it was needed for him to whip someone until Archer could come along and finish the job or Trip may have convinced the other guy they should work together. In Andorian incident Trip wrestled with an Andorian and he was so exhausted all he could do for the rest of the episode was to lie on the floor holding a phase pistol on one of the Andorians which Archer had put down. In precious Cargo Trip is even worse. He hits the kidnapper four tiimes with his left and a good hard right and the kidnapper just laughs, hits Trip. down goes Trip, kidnapper jumps on him and is drowning Trip when the Princess runs up and tags the kidnapper with a branch knocking him out. It is Trip who has to be drug through the desert by Archer although if one looked at both when they were playing that game Trip looked in beter shape than Archer. So, no Stu for Trip and Archer sure looked like one. In andorian incident Archer gets the crap beat out of him and he is ready for roound two right away. Not our boy Trip he gets exhausted just wrestling with an Andorian

SB

[WarpGirl]

SB the Vulcan "Super Strength" got tossed after TOS, it only reared its ugly head again ONE time in ENT. It wasn't as if all the other Vulcans were throwing around humans like rag dolls. So why don't we chalk it up to Tolaris having an adrenaline rush. Some people bet a burst of strength if enough of the hormone is pumping through them.

[justTripn]

In answer to something SB said, no I never did have any particular problems related to being interracially married and neither did the kids, but I understand that things used to be much, much worse, and it's a shame SB that backwards social attitudes of the time broke up a perfectly good relationship. This is why I object everytime people start going all nostalgic about "the good old days" when everything was better because of our "old-fashioned values." Having said that, I do admit to having an agenda when I go to write the mixed marriage of Trip and T'Pol. My point is that for the people in the situation, it's not really about that. Yes, it might make for a few funny stories, but probably no more than the stories of the supposedly "same-race" Irish-American/Italian-American couple.

[WarpGirl]

As an Irish/Italian/French American I can totally say that it's a very combustable mix. As to "the good old days" well... I think that even 20 years ago in my childhood, there were some good things that My nieces and nephews will never get to have. On the other hand, 20 years ago there were some rotten things that I'm glad my nieces and nephews will never deal with. And 20 years from now, people might say the same thing.

[Silverbullet]

That is one problem with writing about the mixed love story - marriage of Trip and T'Pol. She is usually made a bit more human and less Vulcan. Understandable as there is so little to go on as far as Vulcans are concerned. In my encyclopedia there isn't much actually. I understand there are other books in print that deal with Vuclans in more detail.

I suppose it is left up to the writer and the readers. If the readers agree with what the writer presents in his/her story.


I guess Ihave fallen in to the trap of loving the T'Pol character too much and have been angry for some time about the way she was treated in the series. It was shabby as hell. Same thing for Trip. His treatment was just as shabby.

IMHO

SB

[WarpGirl]

Well I don't know how old your copy of you ST encyclopedia is, but it isn't the end all and be all source of information on Vulcans. I know you don't like to trust most websites SB but the truth is there is a ton of info on Vulcans, you just have to do a lot of research.

[Silverbullet]

Double post,

WG, the shoe never pinches until you put it on. When I was a boy living in the projects (after WWII housing was a a premium and the Government put up clapboad housing for G'I's who had moved to the coast and did not want to go back to the farm. Most were out of the projects in a few years.) It was a mixed community. Eveyone minded his/her own business and expected others to do the same. Still there was the undercurrent of intolerance. Kids played together with no problems.

When I was in my late 20's I put on the shoe. I met and fell for a black woman. Typical black features. nice figure. Great sense of humor. But there was a wide gap in our cultures. One I guess we could have overcome eventually but it would have not been easy. Whatever, it didn't work out. I still think of her today.

I am hapy for JT. She avoided some nasty reality of the 40's. Her boys might run in to it sometime some where, I don't know. TThey won't have to play stephen fetchit to avoid the consequences of standing up against it.

SB

[putaro]

So excuse me if I see perfection in T'Pol. She is one of the most beloved characters I know from Film, TV or print media.

Now, here is, I think, a key part of the "Mary Sue". One man's perfection is not everyone's perfection.

While you, as the author, may think of a character as "perfect" and some of the characters in your story may think of said character as "perfect" it is almost impossible that "everyone" will consider the character perfect.

So, Trip might think T'Pol is perfect. Does Corporal Cole?

One of the defining points for a "Mary Sue" is that everyone (or at least everyone who is "good") loves them and thinks they're perfect. It's just not realistic. That's not to say that someone has to be hated by at least one of your characters, but they will see some faults, or just be a little less "I love X"

[WarpGirl]

So excuse me if I see perfection in T'Pol. She is one of the most beloved characters I know from Film, TV or print media.

Now, here is, I think, a key part of the "Mary Sue". One man's perfection is not everyone's perfection.

While you, as the author, may think of a character as "perfect" and some of the characters in your story may think of said character as "perfect" it is almost impossible that "everyone" will consider the character perfect.

So, Trip might think T'Pol is perfect. Does Corporal Cole?

One of the defining points for a "Mary Sue" is that everyone (or at least everyone who is "good") loves them and thinks they're perfect. It's just not realistic. That's not to say that someone has to be hated by at least one of your characters, but they will see some faults, or just be a little less "I love X"

O wow! SO TRUE! Hey can I quote this in another thread?

[putaro]

O wow! SO TRUE! Hey can I quote this in another thread?

As long as you say I'm right you can quote me anytime

[WarpGirl]

Well... You're right about this, so I'll quote this.

[Silverbullet]

I suppose what Putaro is saying is that "What is one man's meat is another man's poison."

My idea of aStu is is their almost super powers. Not that everyone worshhips and loves them. There are bound to be some who harbor jealooousy or hate of the Stu.

So, Trip sees perfection. Cole doesn't but Coles motive isn't T'Pol's abilities it is the fact that T'Pol has Trip she she, Cole, doesn't.

The Green Eyed Monster has generated hate in many people.

For me T'Pol is perfection because she is different. Cole, isn't T'Pol and never will be so she does not represent perfection to me. so sue me

Sb

[WarpGirl]

Well SB while there is some subjectivity, in what makes up a Sue, for example some people think a phyically ideal character is a Sue, there is an objective, rational definition. Panyasan posted a very good one on the first page. I'm going to haunt the KOTOR boards for some good posts about this.