Mary-Sue/Gary-Stu What Are They? How Can They Be Avoided?

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Mary-Sue/Gary-Stu What Are They? How Can They Be Avoided?

Postby WarpGirl » Sat Jun 18, 2011 1:08 pm

OK now this is a topic close to my heart because my KOTORian friends really taught me all about these two pernicious and annoying cliches. I might even dig up some old posts from the assylum. So let's talk...
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Re: Mary-Sue/Gary-Stu What Are They? How Can They Be Avoided

Postby panyasan » Sat Jun 18, 2011 1:27 pm

I already posted this in another thread, but I think it's nice to have some background information if you want to discuss a topic. I got it from a wiki-page on Mary-Sue! She is famous!

A Mary Sue (sometimes just Sue), in literary criticism and particularly in fanfiction, is a fictional character with overly idealized and hackneyed mannerisms, lacking noteworthy flaws, and primarily functioning as a wish-fulfillment fantasy for the author or reader. While the label "Mary Sue" itself originates from a parody of this type of character, most characters labeled "Mary Sues" by readers are not intended by authors as such. Male Mary Sues are often dubbed "Gary Stu", "Larry Stu", "Marty Stu", or similar names.

While the term is generally limited to fan-created characters, and its most common usage today occurs within the fan fiction community or in reference to fan fiction, original characters in role-playing games or literary canon are also sometimes criticized as being "Mary Sues" or "canon Sues" if they dominate the spotlight or are too unrealistic or unlikely in other ways. One example of this criticism is Wesley Crusher from Star Trek: The Next Generation.

The term "Mary Sue" is from the name of a character created by Paula Smith in 1973 for her parody story "A Trekkie's Tale":15 published in her fanzine Menagerie The story starred Lieutenant Mary Sue ("the youngest Lieutenant in the fleet — only fifteen and a half years old"), and satirized unrealistic and adolescent wish-fantasy characters in Star Trek fan fiction. Such characters were generally original (non-canon) and female adolescents who had romantic liaisons with established canon adult characters, or in some cases were the younger relatives or protégés of those characters. By 1976 Menagerie's editors stated that they disliked

Mary Sue stories—the adventures of the youngest and smartest ever person to graduate from the academy and ever get a commission at such a tender age. Usually characterized by unprecedented skill in everything from art to zoology, including karate and arm-wrestling. This character can also be found burrowing her way into the good graces/heart/mind of one of the Big Three [Kirk, Spock, and McCoy], if not all three at once. She saves the day by her wit and ability, and, if we are lucky, has the good grace to die at the end, being grieved by the entire ship.

Today "Mary Sue" carries a connotation of wish-fulfillment and is commonly associated with self-insertion (the writing of oneself into a fictional story). True self-insertion is a literal and generally undisguised representation of the author; most characters described as "Mary Sues" are not, though they are often called "proxies"[4] for the author. The negative connotation comes from this "wish-fulfillment" implication: the "Mary Sue" is judged a poorly developed character, too perfect and lacking in realism to be interesting.
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Re: Mary-Sue/Gary-Stu What Are They? How Can They Be Avoided

Postby putaro » Sat Jun 18, 2011 1:34 pm

I had it beaten into me many years ago that the basis of drama is conflict. Without conflict there is no drama and it's boring (or you're doing something else, maybe comedy).

The "Mary Sue" type characters are boring because they don't have to work hard to get things done. Things always go their way. They pull out yet another amazing ability to save the day. They go around 'splaining to everyone else the error of their ways AND everyone else listens!

Honestly, though, I've gone through a huge amount of Enterprise fan fic in the last few months and my opinion is that Mary Sue isn't a huge problem in this community, at least not as a character.

Where I do see issues (and not all the time, but it's a common problem) is that the Enterprise crew as a whole becomes a bunch of Mary Sue's. Technical issues just get solved. Diplomatic issues just get cleared up. Everyone gets along all the time.

When things get fixed and there's no conflict or difficulty - don't write about it! Glaze over it. "The ship got fixed without issue" and move on to the conflict (or the mush).
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Re: Mary-Sue/Gary-Stu What Are They? How Can They Be Avoided

Postby WarpGirl » Sat Jun 18, 2011 1:48 pm

Panyasan I know you posted it, that's why I made the topic! :clap: :clap: :clap: The inherent problem with the Mary-Sue/Gary-Stu lables is that different writing sites, wikis, authors, readers, ect... Is that the criteria can change. For some people, a character who is physically perfect, and attracts large numbers of people starts leaning toward becoming a Sue/Stu. For others, if a character is throughly good, who never does anything "wrong" is a Sue/Stu. And still others, believe a character like Wesley Crusher is a major Stu.

As Putaro rightly said conflict drives story. Back on the KOTOR site, the famous AthenaPrime (who is a sucessful published author) repeatedly told new authors... The best way to avoid falling into the trap of Sue/Studom is to...

MAKE SURE YOUR CHARACTERS FAIL

It doesn't matter if it's a mission, a relationship, heck it could be a cooking disaster. The point is nobody has success in everything they attempt. So a character who succeeds at everything is not realistic. Even if they die saving the day.

Another thing the lovely AthenaPrime taught, was that even villians can be Sue/Stuified when a character is so completely irredeemable that you can't empathize with anything about them, than they're a Mary-Sue/Gary-Stu.

And if you think about Tolaris he was a brilliant villian because he was articulate, charming, handsome, and charasmatic. It was perfectly understandable that T'Pol was drawn to him instead of someone like Kov. And it made Tolaris a much more successful villian.
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Re: Mary-Sue/Gary-Stu What Are They? How Can They Be Avoided

Postby Silverbullet » Sat Jun 18, 2011 4:08 pm

Putaro, one of the problemswith Enterprise was that often things happened tooo quickly. In bound at the end we see Enterprise zipping along at warp something. We next see Archer and the rest in Sickbay where Archer is recovering from being shot by Trip.

Earlier in the episode Archer asks Trip when they can get going again and Trip says "I don't know if we can get going again" In the scene just before T'Pol reveals that she and Triip are mated and bonded Trip asks her to check for anything that isn't fried.

How in hell did Enterprise get fixed so fast? It should have taken days to repair the Engines yet there is the Enterprise sailing along blissfuly at warp speed a very short time after Trip asks T'Pol to find any part of the engines that isn't fried.

Same as characters recovering. In Similtuude we see Trip with a full head of hair at the funeral of Sim. He just had brain surgery. his head would have been shaved. He would still be in bed possibly in a coma. Yet he is perfectly healed. bit fast.

The writers and TPTB played fast and loose often with the truth.

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Re: Mary-Sue/Gary-Stu What Are They? How Can They Be Avoided

Postby WarpGirl » Sat Jun 18, 2011 4:24 pm

While that is true SB you also have to remember, when it comes to TV several hours days, sometimes even weeks can pass for the story in one hour. You can't automatically assume an episode is in "real time."

For me, the biggest problem with the writing in ENT was that events happened but for the most part there were very few consequences, and that had a lot to so with bringing out some Sue or Stuish traits in the characters. There are exceptions of course, the consequences of Detained came back in Desert Crossing and in Two Days, Two Nights and there were a few other episodes mainly with the Klingons where the past came back. But by-and-large. Enterprise darted in and out with near immunity. Especially in season 3 and 4.

Now most people would say this happened at one point and time in every TV series let alone Trek. That is absolutely true, it's a hazzard of episodic Television writing. Heck even The West Wing fell victim at times. However, I think ENT could have done so much more to curb the trend. Shows like the SG-1 and SGA managed to incorperate consequences brilliantly!
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And by people WG had herself in mind, but then the quote would have been ruined.
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Re: Mary-Sue/Gary-Stu What Are They? How Can They Be Avoided

Postby putaro » Sun Jun 19, 2011 2:40 am

Well, if the pro writers had to submit their scripts to the fan community for feedback they'd be a lot more careful about continuity! :o

Writing for television is definitely a different challenge than writing for print. Consider all of the things you've got to work around: fit it into a fixed time, don't break the characters/situation too badly, commercial breaks!, appealing to a wide audience, directors and producers fiddling with the script. When I'm writing I have a habit of wanting to make sure all of the bases are covered and everything makes sense. That's kind of hard to do in television (hard enough to do in print) because the exposition takes time. If you have an episode of exposition you're going to lose a lot of the audience. It takes a really skilled writer to deliver the exposition without making it seem like exposition.

Dealing with consequences is almost always blown off. I loved "Pulp Fiction" because, to me, the whole movie is about dealing with consequences. The acts that set off the chains of events would usually be the conclusive events in most other movies. Like the sequence where Travolta and Jackson shoot the drug dealer in the car.

The funny thing about fiction is that the good guys are expected to win in the end. Television's even worse because we know the main characters are not going to be killed off except in rare circumstances. So, all of the fun is in the journey. If the journey's too smooth it's not interesting.
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Re: Mary-Sue/Gary-Stu What Are They? How Can They Be Avoided

Postby WarpGirl » Sun Jun 19, 2011 3:00 am

I completely concur. But the side effect for ENT was unfortunately that there were many instances of May-Sue and Gary-Stuism... Still, the Kotor fandom is much worse off. The main character Revan is the most powerful Jedi/Sith ever born in that time. Being so powerful in the Force canonically makes avoiding a Sue or a Stu almost impossible!
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Re: Mary-Sue/Gary-Stu What Are They? How Can They Be Avoided

Postby Silverbullet » Sun Jun 19, 2011 3:17 am

Putaro, sometimes it is too blatant. Archer never paid for any of his transgressions. He had been given a Direct command by the Admiralty to stay on Vulcan and lead the huuman side in the investigation of the bombing of the Earth Embassy. He was ordered to stay in place. (writers put that in to the episode) instead he deserts. goes off in the Forge to help T'Pol look for her mother. By doing this he disobyed a direct order and deserted his post. If he didn't get along with Soval, too bad. He had to deal with the VHC and the Vulcan High Council. He did not need T'Pol since he had Hoshi who spoke fluent Vulcan to traslate for him. He may have set off a Civil war on Vulcan too. Nothing happened to him.

He allowed an illegal experiment to be run on Enterprise which led directly to the death of a crewman and almost got T'Pol kiled. He was in command so he was directly responsible for the crewmans death. Again nothing hapened to him.

He brought three Orion women on board. Did not confine them to quarters with a female guard at the door after Phlox had warmed him how dangerous the women were. One got to Kelby and Enterprise and the crew almost got catured by the Orion mauraders. Nothig happened to him.

Trip on the othr hand almost got Court Martialed in Congenitor for dong what he knew was right. He did get his Ass chewed out by Archer.

One other thing. Archer was really responsible for the destruction of the 3.000 year old Vulcan Monestary at P'Jem but he left T'Pol holding the bag for that one which made her a traitor in the eyes of her species.

Anyway, Archer never had to pay for his wrongs.

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Re: Mary-Sue/Gary-Stu What Are They? How Can They Be Avoided

Postby WarpGirl » Sun Jun 19, 2011 3:20 am

Okay now before this turns into a thread about how Archer is made of teflon and all the things he did wrong... Let's agree that at times he showed characteristics of a Stu, and discuss how an author could change all of that, and add vunerability realism to the character.
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Re: Mary-Sue/Gary-Stu What Are They? How Can They Be Avoided

Postby Silverbullet » Sun Jun 19, 2011 3:05 pm

One way would be for the writers to alllow Archer to use his subordinates as a Commander should. Let them take risky tasks. Unfortunately Ent was a one Hero seies which to my mind crippled it. Archer should have been the lead character but the other characters should have been used more in dangerous situations. Allowed to plan things. That harked back to the first season of TOS where Kirk was the one Hero of the series. In the second season Spock came in to his own which paved hte way for Mccoy and Scotty. TOS became an ensemble series and better for it. TNG, DS9 and voyager all ensemble series lasted far longer than ENT and were more interesting because of all the characters being used in them not only Picard, Janeway and sisko. EnT could have and should have lasted at least seven or more seaspms if it had been an ensemble series with other characters allowed more developemtnt and action. That woud not mean diminshing Archer.

Archer need not have mde major mistakes but he could have been held down a bit too. The major character doesn't mean he has to be the only character.

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Re: Mary-Sue/Gary-Stu What Are They? How Can They Be Avoided

Postby WarpGirl » Sun Jun 19, 2011 4:21 pm

Those are good points and are excellent points to remember when writing a story that has a large cast of characters. Still, avoiding a Sue or a Stu involves many different techniques, you can never rely on just one... If, during the process of writing a fic and your hero is letting everyone else do all the work and reaping the glory for it, it's a step toward developing a Sue.
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Re: Mary-Sue/Gary-Stu What Are They? How Can They Be Avoided

Postby Silverbullet » Sun Jun 19, 2011 4:51 pm

Didn't happen all of the tie but I remember in Dawn, Trip first fought with and then later worked with an alien. He stayed with the alien until the alien was rescued at the risk ofhis own life. Yet at the end T'Pol breathlessly says "You did more in one day than the Vulcans did in one year......' but the truth was it was Trip staying with the alien until rescue came even though he was in danger himself. That made the Aliens change their attitude towards humans. all Archer did was to tell the alien captain where his crewman was which was the agreement between the two ships. Archer was headed for them anyway. Archer did nothing yet he got the glory for it from T'Pol. coure that was the time that T'Pol ws hero worshipping Archer.

Actually in Zero hour Archer had a lot of help in the destruction of the weapon. Hoshi, Trip and T'Pol, the Xindi themselves, Shran. Archer basically did nothing there but follow Hoshi's directions on how to set the weapoon at self destruct. Trip and T'Pol destroyed the shperes which was what the Xindi wanted from the humans before they would join in the attack on the weapon and the Reptilian ship. Malcom and some Maacos went aboard the weapon with Archer. One Maaco waskiled in the fight. Shran destroyed the Reptilian ship which prevented the Reptilians form transportating reinforcements on to the weapon. Many,Many people were involved in the destruction of the weapon. all Archer really did was to kill the Reptilian who murdered Degra. Other than that nothing. Yet he gets High schools named after him and he is hailed as the man who save d Earth.

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Re: Mary-Sue/Gary-Stu What Are They? How Can They Be Avoided

Postby WarpGirl » Sun Jun 19, 2011 5:07 pm

Again true. But I really don't want to turn this thread into "How Archer is a Gary-Stu" the point is to offer writers (especially new ones who join us all the time) tips to avoid falling into the trap of turning any character into a Sue/Stu.

Believe it or not I've read fics where Trip is turned into a Gary Stu! I've read other fics where T'Pol is turned into Mary Sue. Even Malcolm and Hoshi have been given the treatment. It isn't always an "Archer" problem.

Now I must admit I haven't read any ENT fic here where this has happened. But this isn't the only place on the web to find ENT fic. People who find this place through other sites, often enjoy getting pointers from other authors. I know I do.
Some of these people haven't taken their medication. Let's see what happens now...
Donna Moss: The West Wing


And by people WG had herself in mind, but then the quote would have been ruined.
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Re: Mary-Sue/Gary-Stu What Are They? How Can They Be Avoided

Postby putaro » Sun Jun 19, 2011 6:13 pm

Well, I agree with SB's points but I don't think they make Archer into a Gary Stu. It's poor writing but of another kind.

On the Xindi weapon, a Gary Stu would have been the one to break the code, the one to fight all the reptilians, sent Trip and T'Pol a message explaining how to zap the spheres, etc.

Archer getting all the credit and not sharing it around just makes him a jerk.
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