Archer - Dweeb or Hero?

[WarpGirl]

Maybe but he was so clueless when Trip wanted to leave that I doubt it. And I really don't think Trip was directing his remarks to T'Pol. Not saying anyone's wrong, I just don't see it. I'm disappointed in myself actually. I tried so hard to look for it and be objective. I don't want to be like those nuts that just pick at characters they don't like regardless of actual evidence.

[Silverbullet]

I got from the preceding dialogue that Trip was talking about the tellerites. Archer asked him if he meant him. trip said no and Archer jumped down his throat, Trip leaves confused that Archer took it wrong. Didn't see t-Pol racting to it at all. Archer laughed after Trip left he had been suposedly pulling Trips leg but it seemed mean minded to me.

[Asso]

I could be wrong about this, but I suspect that in Enterprise, the writers intentionally set out to contrast a heroic captain of legend (a la Kirk) with the actual real-life leader who had to learn on the job and often had feet of clay. really.

And this is the greatest mistake. Any fabulosities got lost.

[Silverbullet]

FEET? Ain't touching that with a ten foot pole.

Let me say that he was a Captain. Never mind that Trip was a hell of alot better Captain the few times he had command of the Enterprise.

[honeybee]

Never mind that Trip was a hell of alot better Captain the few times he had command of the Enterprise.

Oh yeah. I love my Captain Trip. But first season Trip wouldn't have done much better than Archer. He had to take the hard lessons of Cogenitor and The Expanse, as well as develop a friendship/love for a certain Vulcan, to get him to that place.

I do agree that the writers wanted to make Archer flawed and therefor interesting. You see the same premise applied to the first season on TNG. Picard is a total prig and stuffed shirt in the first season - he relaxes later. But, outside of the Expanse when his flaws worked for him, I never saw Archer as anything but an accidental hero.

[Alelou]

I think that as fans of Trip and T'Pol, we tend to diss Archer's strengths. Clearly, he's comfortable being in command, he maintains the loyalty of the crew he gathered (and didn't exactly do a bad job of that), he's not a terrible boss to have, and he's never going to leave anyone behind if he can help it. I'm not sure whether the fact that Bakula played him as such a nice guy might not have hurt his character over the long run. A more tortured, driven reading might have made him a little more compelling and a more exciting counterpoint to Trip in particular. But then, Bakula sucks at that kind of character (if the MU is anything to go by) so it's probably just as well he played to his own strengths.

[honeybee]

I don't dislike Archer - but I do recognize that he wasn't as popular as some of the other characters on the show. I actually think he's an important part of the TnT dynamic. He withdraws in the third season, leaving his two best friends to cling to each other. And TnT certainly have their loyalty and respect for Archer in common. He's definitely the third point in a triangle, though its not a traditional love triangle.

When Bakula played Archer as tough, he came off more like a d**k to me than a tough guy. So, that was an issue.

[Silverbullet]

May I respectively disagree. Archer was a poor Officer and commander. A captain of a ship or commander of a batallion does not go off he sends his subordinatees that is why there are subordinates who are capable. A good commander knows hat he is important and can not risk himself needlesly. He must at times send his subordinates in to siutations where they risk death or are even killed that is why he is the Captain because he can accept that kind of responsiibility. Archer never let anyone do anything if he could help it. Travis should have taken the insectoid ship into the planet to destory the weapon in Azati Prime not Archer. When Malcom was out trying to get rid of that thing on the ship and got injured. Trip should have enn out there not Archer. Archer should have never trusted that Orion in bound. when the female Orions caused so much trouble he should have had them locked up and guarded by female guards. He didn't so he got into trouble only being saved by Trip and T-Pol. Archer was stupid. What always got me was they showed the Enterprise sailing trhugh space afterwards but when asked when they could get going Trip siad I am not sure we can get going. what I have always thought was the maurders would be on them like shot knowing the Enterprise was helpless without power or weapons it would have taken Trip at least a week to get the Enterprise underway and by that time they would have been boarded and taken captive by the maurders. Archer constantly said "that is an Order as if he didn't think his subordinates understood an order when they heard one. That is a poor Officer. One who is not sure of himself or his abilitity to comand. Now that is reality. The writers never seemed to have clue about what a military would be like or how it would operate. That is the problem with a one hero series. All of the other series TOS, TNG, DS9, voy, were ensemble series. Sure the Captain had the lions share of the show but the other characters had thier episodes and were drawn out not on Enterprise.

so Archer was a poor example of an officer who could command loyalty or admiration from better men. A good leader will gather the best around him/her but will be able to command them.

I think that Bakkula had the best lines, the best episodes, the best of it all. If he failed to make Archer stand out then that ws his fault not the writers.

[WarpGirl]

I think that as fans of Trip and T'Pol, we tend to diss Archer's strengths. Clearly, he's comfortable being in command, he maintains the loyalty of the crew he gathered (and didn't exactly do a bad job of that), he's not a terrible boss to have, and he's never going to leave anyone behind if he can help it. I'm not sure whether the fact that Bakula played him as such a nice guy might not have hurt his character over the long run. A more tortured, driven reading might have made him a little more compelling and a more exciting counterpoint to Trip in particular. But then, Bakula sucks at that kind of character (if the MU is anything to go by) so it's probably just as well he played to his own strengths.

I think that sometimes as TnT fans people sometimes assume that we automatically don't like Archer because we view him as a romantic rival. Me myself I don't.

And the worst thing about him as a boss is that he wasn't written to let his people do their jobs! He tells T'Pol Microsingluarites are a Vulcan Myth... Hello he's a test pilot what does he know about it, it's a subject T'Pol is an expert in. Yeah he gets proven wrong, but he should have left it alone. He tells Malcolm how to protect him, the ship, and tactics. Not his Job. The only people he doesn't tell how to do their jobs are Hoshi and Trip. He even tells Phlox how to do his job. That's a horrible boss.

He's loyal I'll give him that. He wants to do the right thing. I don't think he's a horrible person. But I do not see him as a good Captain not even after the expanse. Star Trek should never focus on one person, and unfortunately ENT did. And it was an irritating one.

[Alelou]

Star Trek should never focus on one person, and unfortunately ENT did. And it was an irritating one.

I don't agree with this at all. Enterprise shared out the focus in episodes among the leads and even the secondary actors quite a bit. Trip got a heck of a lot more play than either McCoy or Scotty did on TOS; I think he got more play than any of the secondary leads did on TNG too, proportionally speaking (with seven years on the air, TNG could even give episodes to minor characters like Barclay). Heck, as tragic a misstep as *the_abomination* was, the whole episode was really focused on TRIP.

As far as arguing Archer's worth -- we're just always going to disagree about that. I do think it's a little unfair to hold Archer to a higher standard than Kirk, however. The real military and Star Trek are not the same thing, and if they were the show would probably be boring as hell.

[WarpGirl]

You're kidding right? Seriously, I never compared Archer to Kirk, I don't even like Kirk all that much. At least not in TOS. And I certainly wasn't comparing Starfleet to a real military. I hate when people do. But at least in TNG VOY and DS9 and TOS people did their jobs. TnT got more play in the personal stuff not the professional stuff. And Malcolm got shafted!

[Silverbullet]

Alelou, You must have been watching a different series in a different universe. Spock and Mccoy had a lot more exposure in TOS even Scotty had his episodes. None of them were made out to be Hicks or Comic Relief. Spock was prominent in almost all of the episodes especially beginning in season two. He often eclipsed Kirk simply because Nemoy made him so strong and the fans demaded more of him.

I TNG. Riker, Data, Troi and Crusher were featured constantly. Riker especailly with Data right behind. they stoood out in the series. Coudln't miss them. In DS9 Kira, Bashir, the ferengi whose name I cannot think of were in it a whole lot more than all of the characters in Ent. The series didn't revolve around the Captain so much. Kira was an important character, In voyager we have Paris, torres, the doctor, Janeway and to a lesser degree the rest of the characters. but they were in the series much more than any of the characters on Ent.

In ent we were fed a steady diet of Archer. It got to the point where he was super Archer. T-Pol was shown a lot simply because she ws Sidekick Polly. She ws used as backdrop for Archer and hero worshipping. Her character was trated shabbily. Trip never had a chance his character was portrayed as a hick, comic relief, weak. He was never given any credit. the character was often left out of the second half of an episode. When the Trip character was allowed any leeway CT made the most of it. He delivered some great acting when allowed but what he was allowed was very limited. Archer on the other hand was every where doing everything. Could defeat aany living being even if it was imossible. I still believe that was what drove fans away too damned much Archer.

I can remember watching all of the series and looking forward to seeing all of the characters because I knew they would be developed and used. Not on Ent.

[Alelou]

Well, I'm sure we'll have disagreements about this, but when I review the episodes for who was central, here's what I come up with for Trip as clearly Trip-centric episodes:

Unexpected
Shuttlepod One (split with Malcolm)
Precious Cargo
Dawn
Cogenitor
Similitude
*the_abomination*

He also has very strong plot strands running throughout Seasons 3 and 4.

I won't argue Spock because I agree he got plenty of stories on TOS. Just as T'Pol did on Ent, though I think he may have gotten more. However, when I review the three seasons there for Scotty and McCoy I come up with:

McCoy:
The Man Trap
For the World is Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky

Scotty:
Wolf in the Fold
The Lights of Zetar (if that's the one where he has a girlfriend Mira somebody -- I can't remember for certain)

Furthermore, I can think of Malcolm, Hoshi and Travis episodes on Ent. I can't think of any specific Sulu, Uhura or Chekov episodes on ST.

Am I missing something?

As I said, I think TNG is a different case. It had seven seasons to tell as many stories as they could come up with. They had a lot more time to give the different characters their episodes. (That, or maybe I'm just trying to block out my memory of the Wesley-centric ones.)

[Asso]

... Enterprise shared out the focus in episodes among the leads and even the secondary actors quite a bit. Trip got a heck of a lot more play than either McCoy or Scotty did on TOS...

Honestly, I didn't get this impression at all.The fact is that Kirk, Spok and Mc Coy were a real Trio, even if Kirk was obviously the major figure. Well! But he was capable of being it!

... Heck, as tragic a misstep as *the_abomination* was, the whole episode was really focused on TRIP.

And this says everything.

[honeybee]

I am going to chime in and agree, for the most part with Alelou on this. TOS did have a nice trio going on with Kirk/Spock/McCoy, but the secondary characters were just supporting figures. If the show had continued, they may have had Uhura, Chekov and Scotty episodes - but that didn't happen. And Kirk was always in the center of the trinity.

But Enterprise was more of an ensemble show from the beginning, with every character, including Travis, being given episodes that centered around their characters. I think Manny Coto and Mike Sussman both admitted the writers soon started to enjoy writing for Trip because he was a popular character, Trineer was charming and good actor and he represented the "21st Century" voice of the audience. Thus, we got many Trip-centric episodes and in the ensemble shows, Trip often gets great moments.

T'Pol also got a very many Vulcan-centric and T'Pol centric episodes from the beginning.

Some of my favorite early episodes are the ensemble shows, like Shockwave Part I and II, The Catwalk and Singularity - where each cast member is given a moment to shine. And Archer not being my favorite character, I tend to find the Archer-centric episodes a little dull. However, in episodes like Similitude, when Archer is one of several characters who shine forth, I think Archer does often add something to the dynamic.