Archer - Dweeb or Hero?

[Silverbullet]

Alelou, given the mount of episodes in Ent that was veryfew that featured Trip. Hoshi, malcom and Trav is had one maybe two. T-Pol as I have said was backdroop, sex Kitten, sidekick, The episodes she was featured in, some were an embarassement. Bounty comes to mind as ANIS, the Seventh.

In North Star, E2, Andorina Indicent. and a few others Trip simply was not in the second half of the episode. In dawn, his character ws the catalyst for the aliens gettig along with HUmans yet it was Archer who was given credit for that, T-Pol telling him that he accomplished more in a day than the Vulcans had in a year. Archer did nothing but tell the aliens where ot find thier crewman. Trip stayed with the alian until it was rescued that would have weighed much more heavily in their decidion regarding realtions with humans. In cease fire trip saves a fire fight that could have gone down to the suface by insering Entrprise between the Andoirans and the vulcans. does he get any kudos for that? Nope, it is Archer again. so the trip character got short changed constantly. That didn't happen in the other series. the characters came in to thei rown when deserved. If they did disappear for the second half of the episode there was agood rason for it.

[Escriba]

OK, if ENT is so centered in Archer that the other characters are unimportant and they constantly praise Archer when apparently he is an ass, why do people (watchers) care for ENT at all? If other characters weren't portrayed good enough for us to care, then those characters wouldn't have fans. But they do. Ergo...

[honeybee]

There is no doubt that Archer/Scot Bakula was the star of the show - and he got the lion's share of the episodes. But there are still a whole slew of episodes that center around either T'Pol or Trip or the whole cast working together. And I know that when they were doing the story breakdowns for the Xindi arc, the writers planned motivations/experiences for every character - with the possible exception of Travis, whom they had clearly given-up on.

I do think Phlox got the short-shrift in the Xindi arc and I wish there had been more of his dealing with life as a combat doctor.

[Alelou]

Alelou, given the mount of episodes in Ent that was veryfew that featured Trip. Hoshi, malcom and Trav is had one maybe two. T-Pol as I have said was backdroop, sex Kitten, sidekick, The episodes she was featured in, some were an embarassement. Bounty comes to mind as ANIS, the Seventh.

In North Star, E2, Andorina Indicent. and a few others Trip simply was not in the second half of the episode. In dawn, his character ws the catalyst for the aliens gettig along with HUmans yet it was Archer who was given credit for that, T-Pol telling him that he accomplished more in a day than the Vulcans had in a year. Archer did nothing but tell the aliens where ot find thier crewman. Trip stayed with the alian until it was rescued that would have weighed much more heavily in their decidion regarding realtions with humans. In cease fire trip saves a fire fight that could have gone down to the suface by insering Entrprise between the Andoirans and the vulcans. does he get any kudos for that? Nope, it is Archer again. so the trip character got short changed constantly. That didn't happen in the other series. the characters came in to thei rown when deserved. If they did disappear for the second half of the episode there was agood rason for it.

I guess I just don't feel offended if Trip doesn't have much to do in the second half of an episode or provides a little comic relief or doesn't get specificially credited with something when Archer does. But then I don't think you and I will ever perceive these things even remotely in the same way. Vive la difference...

[WarpGirl]

OK, if ENT is so centered in Archer that the other characters are unimportant and they constantly praise Archer when apparently he is an ass, why do people (watchers) care for ENT at all? If other characters weren't portrayed good enough for us to care, then those characters wouldn't have fans. But they do. Ergo...

<raises hand> Because I hate ENT for more reasons than just Archer, but what little we do get from the other characters inspire me by their potential.

Look I'm not saying that ENT didn't have other character episodes. It did. BUT they were poor at best. Hoshi got one fairly good episode in Exile, BUT the transporter one was pathetic and unorigional. Trip did get some good episodes. He did I don't deny that. But the majority ot T'Pol episodes she was either a victim, a sex goddess, or needing Archer to pull her out of a mess. I liked the Vulcan Arc but the Arc was about ARCHER saving Vulcan. The only true Vulcan/T'Pol episode I know of is Home, and even then she's a victim. Even the episode where Phlox nearly labotomizes Travis, ARCHER flew the ship. T'Pol didn't save the day. Malcolm only got Shuttle Pod One, as a character development episode, and he NEVER saved the day. How many times did Worf, Tuvok, Odo?

I realize the proportions are different because ENT didn't even get 100 episodes. But my point is even when major characters are featured, usually they were Archer's props for him to save the day. And yeah maybe they used the same formula in TOS but it didn't work with this plot or cast.

[Silverbullet]

Alelou, I watched Ent in spite of Archer not because of him. I watched it for the other characters all the while hopeing that they would be given more to do than make Archer look good.

The things that they had Archer do: Defeat Shran withthe Ice Axe although Archer had never handled one and Shran was usig one all of his life; Archer being shot in to open space (he would have been flash frozen,) since there was not outside pressure his internal pressure would probably forced his inards out through his mouth. Yet he survies with nothing more than a little frost on him. InTerra Prime, Trip needs an Oxygen mask but not Archer he doesn't need air like common folk. He knew everything about anything he goes down t the Armory to show Malcom how to do things although Malcom is the armory expert. I know that on a submarine people need to know as many jobs as possible exxept for the captain. So, Archer being a test pilot I hardly think he would have that extensive knowledge.

Damn sure didn't see Kirk down in engineering working on the Engines but Archer did, Picard sure didn't he was the captain and he left things like that up to his subordinates. Archer left nothing up to his subordinates. Kira on DS9 was the First Officer and she had a substantial role in the series as first Officer. But T-Pol while suposedly was first Officer she wasn't shown very often in that position. Archer did everything.

I watched Ent but the first time around I couldn't stomach Archer so I stopped watching it after the first season. Second time I made it into some of the second Season. It wasn't until the reruns on Scifi channel that I watched the whole series.

[honeybee]

I didn't mind Archer lending a hand in engineering - he had knowledge about the engines and it was a relatively small crew, after all. Picard did not have an engineering background and his crew was much larger and probably much more formal as well. Picard was always portrayed as distant from his crew - never even socializing with his senior officers. It was such a big deal when he sat down to play poker in the last episode.

So, they were going for more informality with Archer. And I agree with Alelou - you can't apply real military standards to Starfleet - the story comes first which makes regulations, rank and whose job is what a little fuzzy.

I actually thought T'Pol was hands-down the big hero of the episode Singularity - so that just shows how you can see things with different eyes.

But I must confess I have a soft spot for Shockwave Part II - because the ship-in-trouble plot features everyone but Archer and all the rest work together. That's what I like to see.

[Escriba]

Look I'm not saying that ENT didn't have other character episodes. It did. BUT they were poor at best. Hoshi got one fairly good episode in Exile, BUT the transporter one was pathetic and unorigional. Trip did get some good episodes. He did I don't deny that. But the majority ot T'Pol episodes she was either a victim, a sex goddess, or needing Archer to pull her out of a mess. I liked the Vulcan Arc but the Arc was about ARCHER saving Vulcan. The only true Vulcan/T'Pol episode I know of is Home, and even then she's a victim. Even the episode where Phlox nearly labotomizes Travis, ARCHER flew the ship. T'Pol didn't save the day. Malcolm only got Shuttle Pod One, as a character development episode, and he NEVER saved the day. How many times did Worf, Tuvok, Odo?

Malcolm, actually, had the "Section 31 Arc." Most of the people in the series have arcs, in fact. Maybe T'Pol was always shown as a victim, but she has a hell of an Arc: The Andorian Incident leads to Shadows of P'Jem and later to Home. And Fusion leads to Stigma and even to Kir'Shara. And of course, there is Daedalus as an aftermath of both.

Trip has his sister's death that has a great influence in The Forgotten and it's an issue even in the last episode, Terra Prime (because, as we know, there isn't any other after it )

And Hoshi is a key character in the end of the Xindi Arc.

Did Archer "take credit" for the victories? Hell, yes. But does anybody know the boatswain of the Santa María? No. On the other hand, everybody knows Christopher Columbus.

[Alelou]

I didn't mind Archer lending a hand in engineering - he had knowledge about the engines and it was a relatively small crew, after all. Picard did not have an engineering background and his crew was much larger and probably much more formal as well. Picard was always portrayed as distant from his crew - never even socializing with his senior officers. It was such a big deal when he sat down to play poker in the last episode.

So, they were going for more informality with Archer. And I agree with Alelou - you can't apply real military standards to Starfleet - the story comes first which makes regulations, rank and whose job is what a little fuzzy.

I actually thought T'Pol was hands-down the big hero of the episode Singularity - so that just shows how you can see things with different eyes.

But I must confess I have a soft spot for Shockwave Part II - because the ship-in-trouble plot features everyone but Archer and all the rest work together. That's what I like to see.

SB will no doubt wish to point out that YellowHead!Archer had to appear and tell them all what to do to save the day, and they would have been destroyed anyway if Archer didn't show up with Silik in tow. On the other hand, they were definitely on the problem before Head!Archer popped in. I just rewatched that one last night, actually, and I enjoyed it too, even with the ending (and by the way, T'Pol actually got the big speech there, and Archer ended up looking kinda nebbish with the infamous gazelle speech). Anyway, even if Archer did save the day, it's obvious he couldn't have done it without Daniels.

Off topic, but if Hoshi and Travis are on C deck and Malcolm and Trip and T'Pol are on B deck, when they finally do start communicating, why the heck doesn't Hoshi have to climb up or down as well as across to get where she's going?

[honeybee]

Oh yes, Yellow Head Archer. Perhaps I just prefer him as head. Still, I do love to see the bridge crew close ranks, pull together and fight the intruders.

As much as I defend the show, I do think the TCW was poorly executed. And I love, love, love time travel stories. So, it takes a lot for me to be bored by one. The only TCW episode I really liked was Future Tense, with the ship from the future - and that's a pretty low key episode.

[Silverbullet]

Yup, At the end after Trip, t-Pol, Hoshi, Malcom fooled silik and got Archer back from the future BTW it was Archer appearing in the upper corner of t-Pol's quarters to tell her what to do and how to do it. Crew could not think of it. (saving the Temporal patrol) Acher beats up silik. what does trip shout "HE DID IT"

When t-Pol blows up at Archer for wanting to steal that Warp coil she is right it was immoral. but she has to apologize to Archer because she was right. What Archer wanted to do was critical to the ship, mission and necessary. but T-Pol was only considering the mora factors so she was right in that.

At the end of bound Archer says he is going to be big about it and not put into his log that Trip shot a fellow Officer. Never mind that it was the sheer stupidiity of Archer that got them into trouble in the first place. Can't put that in the log can we. What Archer should have done was to contact Starfleet tell them of the Orions offer and have them send out a survey ship to see if the Orions were telling the truth.

I am at the time writing two versions of what might have happened. The Orion mauraders being told by the Orion Hadder sar (or whatever his name is) about Enterprise lying helpless with no power or weapons just waiting to be taken. Remember Trip said he didn't know if they could get underway that Kelby had blown every Ep on board. that woulld take a few days and maybe replacement parts the ship might not have. So, Enterprise drifting helpless without power or weapons. All those lovely captives to make slaves out of and a nice NX class ship to be captured. Think the Orions would be satisfied with just Archer.

Naturaly the writers ignored this having Enterprise somehow up and running toward Earth.

[Escriba]

At the end of bound Archer says he is going to be big about it and not put into his log that Trip shot a fellow Officer. Never mind that it was the sheer stupidiity of Archer that got them into trouble in the first place. Can't put that in the log can we. What Archer should have done was to contact Starfleet tell them of the Orions offer and have them send out a survey ship to see if the Orions were telling the truth.

When, in Trek History, has that happened? When a captain, in Trek History, has thought "Mmmm... let's contact Starfleet and wait until they send a survey team" and has decided to sit down and wait? When, oh, when? Basically because that would eliminate more than half of the Trek episodes in any of the shows

I am at the time writing two versions of what might have happened. The Orion mauraders being told by the Orion Hadder sar (or whatever his name is) about Enterprise lying helpless with no power or weapons just waiting to be taken. Remember Trip said he didn't know if they could get underway that Kelby had blown every Ep on board. that woulld take a few days and maybe replacement parts the ship might not have. So, Enterprise drifting helpless without power or weapons. All those lovely captives to make slaves out of and a nice NX class ship to be captured. Think the Orions would be satisfied with just Archer.

Hmmmm... Didn't I read something of it?

[Silverbullet]

Escriba, you mean you have rad a story like that already?

Be interesdted in how it is handled.

[WarpGirl]

I hope I'm not vitriolic, and I won't say that Archer was a bad man. He was not. But his choices were poor, and I agree with Silverbullet's points about him not delegating. And T'Pol should have NEVER appologized for disagreeing about the warp coil incedent. BUT I do not think Starfleet is in anyway like a proper military nor should it be. I just think Archer had a very poor command style. And that's why I don't like him, and he's annoying. But that last part is just me. I don't agree with or like the whole leadership style.

[Escriba]

Escriba, you mean you have rad a story like that already?

Be interesdted in how it is handled.

No, I was talking about yours Didn't you let me read an excerpt about T'Pol talking about what will happen with the marauders?