One useful comment

[Silverbullet]

Having problems with my computer. For some reason Mouse quits on me. I just lost a long Post because I had to restart the Computer because the Curor wouldn'tmove. Everything else worked just not the cursor. Mouse was turned off. Itis back on again. Seems that when I break the connection with my server things work again. Beginning to suspect am getting signals that cause roblems from the server. Hate togo out to buy a new moouse when this one probably works.

SB

[Cogito]

If the mouse quits on you in the middle of something important, then just about anything that you would normally use the mouse for can be done just using the keyboard.

If it does hang up again and assuming you've saved anything important that you were working on, it's worth disconnecting it and waiting a few seconds before reconnecting it. Often, USB devices that hang up can be restarted like that.

[Silverbullet]

Problem is that everythin gworks except the cursor. the Mouse turns off and the cursor hangs. Other than that I can type or just about anything but I cannot reach the bottom row to restart or shut down I caneve backout of the thread. Strange. I may need a new mouse. Will try that.

Until then I just have to live withit. Itis apain losing posts though.

SB

[Cogito]

Can you still switch to other windows using ALT+TAB? I don't know what browser you're using, but it's common to hide the mouse cursor while you're typing into a text field - the problem may be with the browser rather than the mouse. You should also be able to move the focus from the text field to other links and buttons on the page by hitting TAB to go through them forwards, or SHIFT+TAB to go backwards. Since there are dozens of links on a typical page you need to be prepared to hit the TAB key dozens of times to get the focus onto the control/link you want to activate. It's not always obvious where the focus is, but you should find that control which has focus is displayed with a feint outline. This would let you get the focus on to the submit button. Once it has focus you can 'click' it using the space bar to submit your post.

[Distracted]

I don't think it's a "grass is greener phenomenon" I just think those a great majority of men have the potential to become jackasses! And probably were jackasses all along. But developed said "phenomnon" in some bogus attempt to make it socially acceptable. Sorry hate cheaters!

No Trip was not developed with those tendencies. Malcolm on the other hand, if he married the wrong person I am sorry to say might.

Hmmm. Now I don't see Malcolm as a player. Secretive and closed emotionally, maybe, but not unfaithful once he commits. If he ever commits, that is.

Now you've got me wondering. It's a pet peeve of mine that societal mores have changed so much just in the past generation in regards to fidelity. And so I'm curious about what the people on this board think about this question:

If you make no promises and your partner makes certain assumptions about your feelings for them that aren't true, when you find someone you really love and cheat on your partner, is that infidelity?

I think it is, because your partner would not have assumed that you loved them unless you'd encouraged them in that assumption, presumably to get what you want (sex, financial security, whatever). But I've read books and seen movies where characters are trapped in arranged and loveless marriages and then have affairs and the book/movie uses that to justify infidelity and glorify "Twooo Wuv". What the book/movie generally fails to address are the reasons the person entered into the arranged marriage to begin with. Even if love wasn't the reason they entered into the relationship, presumably there was a good reason to enter into the contract. Emotion doesn't invalidate the contract. Neither does "falling out of love" with your original partner and subsequently "falling in love" with someone else. Just because a person develops feelings for another person doesn't necessarily justify behaving in a fashion which violates a previous committment. This is why I hate most soap operas and many "romantic comedies". Mature adults should have enough control of their baser impulses to avoid jumping into bed with their crush of the month, especially if they already have a prior committment.

[WarpGirl]

Dis I'm a girl of the 21st century. Not yet 30 and I know my own mind. And all of that stuff you mentioned is the modern way of thinking, and complete BULL! The truth is people are just sick! Things like love, marriage and family can all take a back seat in modern times because all that matters is whatever satisfies the indivdual. I hate this day and age, I wish I lived in 1800.

The bottom line is if your partner thinks you love them, then cheating on them is just that CHEATING. Even if they know you don't love them, and comitted to you anyway, and you cheat it's CHEATING! And cheating is wrong period. I feel really bad for people like Princess Diana, but one case of adultry doesn't make another one right!

[Silverbullet]

There is no valid reason for cheating. That being said, some Men do not because they do not love their partners/Wives and family but because (especially with middle aged men) they want to reassure th4emselves that they are still attractive and desirable. They know their wives feel that they are but they want to know if they still "Have it" So they wander. At first harmless but often they cheat. Some Men just flirt for a while then satisfied stop.

Mostly males who chear come home with their tails between their legs and beg forgiveness vowing never to do it again. Often wives will let the male back to rotect her children and family. This does not excuse the male thogh.

Females also cheat but I belive for other reasons. Women don't need to know if they still have it. all a female need do is announce her availability. So their reason for wandering are different: bordrom, feeling of being penned in? Feeling that they aren't apppreciated and that the huusband takes her for granted and doesn't pay enough attention or say that he cares anymore?

One of the quickest ways to take all of the joy out of life is to be in bed with a female, have her look up at you and say :"My Husband is terribly jealous" Scares the Hell out a guy. Husband may be suspecious and folowing her. Trouble.

Cheating for Hollywood types, sports figures and musicians. Too much temptation. they have females throwing themselves at them all of the time. It akes a very strong man to resist that forever.Most don't.

But, NO, cheating is never good

SB

[WarpGirl]

Not to go all "new age" SB but I think it's more complicated than that. I think there are a million different reasons why people have affairs, and a million reasons why they are either kicked to the curb like the jerks they are (men or women) or are forgiven.

The point is that in this day and age people of both genders have gone all out in rationalizing why it's not "immoral" to cheat. For men, it's usually, "I needed to feel wanted by others" for women the excuse is usually, "I'm neglected, love starved, he never loved me..." But every rationaliztion exists because society in general is fighting like mad to make something that was once wrong into something acceptable. And it all boils down to one thing, people are selfish, and only care about their wants, needs, and desires.

And some make themselves feel better saying, We're not married and I never promised anything. Sorry but unless both parties know beyond a shadow of a doubt one or both has other partners, it's CHEATING.

[Silverbullet]

WG, when I was a young man cheating existed but it was considered wrong and a threat to the marriage. There are other things that were a threat too: excessive drinking, spending too much money and not saving for that "Rainy Day" how to raise the kids. but those were domestic problems that only involved the couple and generally could be resolved except for the drinking which took an admission that a problem existed. (Today problem gambling has been aded to the mix)

Marriage vows then meant something to a lot of people and society expected couples to honor them. Although I often heard "My wife is married but I am not."

The doble standard was alive and well in those days. Men who cheated when asked if they found out that their wife cheaetd what would they do "I would kill her." But they woud expect to be forgiven for their infidelity.

It was and still is a very complicated issue. Trying to make it less immoral won't solve anything. But if marriage vows are held in such low esteem thenmarriage is in trouble.

SB

[WarpGirl]

Hey I'm with you! As I said above, it grates on my nerves that society in general is in a state where they want it to be okay. I think even "cheating" on a boyfriend or girlfriend is just as bad as doing it to a wife or husband. But Dis brought up changing social mores and how it affects fiction.

Bringing this back from a moral debate and back to TnT land, there are dozens and dozens of stories on HoT and other places where to get around "T'Pol being married" people mangled Vulcan culture and marriage customs to make it okay for TnT to have a relationship while Koss was alive. In fact... Hey Dis wasn't one of those yours? Not that I minded that one, it was very Jane Eyre. (Might hate the book, love the movies) Dis did one that wasn't entirely out of the realm of possiblity. But that said I don't see either of them doing that without a major breakdown at somepoint. Trip refused Feezle, and T'Pol is an honrable woman, neither of them ascribe to the popular mores of todays society. THANK GOD!

[Distracted]

Mine was more of a parody than anything, a takeoff on a scene in Jane Eyre where Jane is agonizing over whether she should leave Rochester once she finds out that his wife is still alive. Only Trip plays Jane's part and T'Pol is Rochester. I did it just to see if I could do it, and stole most of it outright from Bronte. I said so in the author's notes, too. It was out-and-out plagiarism. I'm incapable of writing like that and honestly wouldn't want to if I could. It was meant to be taken VERY tongue-in-cheek and supposed to be funny.

I wouldn't write a serious story about cheating without some very negative consequences happening to the cheater, although some people thought my story "Charlie" was about T'Pol cheating on Trip. I didn't see it that way, though, since Trip's body was already dead. People really didn't take it well, the guys especially. They insisted that even if Trip was dead and just a mental presence he'd never encourage her to be with another man, even if that man was about to give up his autonomous life to allow Trip to live again. I disagreed, but even my husband had a conniption about it. We had a huge fight and he accused me of wanting to sleep with a 21 year old. He didn't get it at all.

To this day I have no idea whether it's just a male thing of never wanting his woman to be with anyone else even after he's dead (seems pretty selfish to me) or whether I'm just weird. It seemed perfectly reasonable to me that Trip's katra, left without a body, would want T'Pol to have someone who could take care of her. It seemed equally obvious to me that if a man was about to give up his life so that Trip might live again, Trip might conceivably be willing to allow that man one night with the woman he loved, even if that woman also happened to be the woman that Trip loved. But my husband (and every other man that read the story, I think) informed me in no uncertain terms that NO man would ever be that grateful. Maybe it's a female thing. We've been sharing the men we love with other women for centuries. It didn't seem that much of a stretch to me, and death of the body ends the marriage in my book. It's "til death do us part", after all.

[WarpGirl]

Well I liked the plagerism, that's because I found Jane's reaction in the book, completely unrealistic. Nobody is that good! As for your story Charlie I'm with you! I didn't think it was about cheating, or incest, "Charlie" was already Trip in many ways, and Trip was 'dead' anyway. And an unselfish person does not want the people they love to be miserable for the rest of their lives after the death of their mates. Trip is extremely unselfish. I thought your characterization was impeccable.

As for your husband and other men having a conniption about it. I'll bet they would have appluaded you, if it had been Trip carrying T'Pol's Katra and he made a clone of her to carry it, and T'Pol let him have a night with her. My great aunt Elsie was right, sometimes men are **it*. About stuff like that they have this whole double-standard that is beyond rediculous.

[Distracted]

Much of the double standard is cultural, I'm sure, but I suspect there's also an element of biological hard-wiring...one of those instinctive reactions that reveal just how much males and females differ in their thought processes. That's one of the things I find interesting about stories written by an author of one gender from the viewpoint of a main character of the opposite gender. Sometimes the authors do a really good job, IMO. Other times they miss the boat completely.

I personally think that the Vulcan female POV should be easier for a male fanfic writer to pull off than a human female POV, but then, as a female of the "rational" rather than emotive type I have my own opinions about the way T'Pol thinks. Most male fic writers, IMO, tend to write her as too emotional. And then I have had male readers tell me that my Trip is too emotional. I can only take their word for it, not being male. And I have occasionally come across slash fics (generally written by women with male POV characters) in which the male characters are so blatantly OOC that even I had to wince.

I guess the bottom line is that the reader's perception of whether a fanfic character is in character or out often, IMO, depends more on the reader's preconceptions about the character rather than on how the character is written.

[WarpGirl]

IDK if the double-standard is cultural because it seems to me the vast majority of men whether they be from Dallas or Tokyo or anywhere in between seem to feel that way.

To be blatanly honest, I'm not too keen on the idea of re-marriage. But only because my religion teaches me I get a second chance here on earth. So yeah I'd wait it out, and it would be nice if my hypothetical guy waited it out too. That said, if I knew it would be too hard or bad for him emotionally to wait it out, I'd say "be happy honey just make sure she doesn't look like me."

Most male fic writers, IMO, tend to write her as too emotional.

Can I join the club? I'm not sure if it's because they seem to think T'Pol is too "cold," or the fact that it's harwired into society that women are always the "softer" of the genders, but it really gets to me sometimes because I end up thinking, "Good golly Miss Molly, not even I at my most crazy in love or depths of dispair would act like that."

And then I have had male readers tell me that my Trip is too emotional.

Like seriously? I have two brothers that are way more emotional then any incarnation of Trip I've come across yours is one of the best I know of.

For my own writing, I have to constantly tell myself to let him open up more!

I guess the bottom line is that the reader's perception of whether a fanfic character is in character or out often, IMO, depends more on the reader's preconceptions about the character rather than on how the character is written.

AMEN! But let me tell you a secret... It's worse, when you write an RPG (role playing game) fic. Thankfully, because of the inherent nature of the thing, people accept that it is in the "eye-of-the-beholder" so you can go nuts and the majority of people are very cool about it.

[Distracted]

I know next to nothing about RPG fics, but how can an RPG character have the same depth of identifiable character development as a character on a TV show? I guess since I've never played computer RPG's (I'm an old D&D gal, a game played with a book, a map, and a handful of dice at the kitchen table) I've always thought that computer RPG's are all more like WOW, where you create your own character. What happens to create an RPG character? Who decides what the character is supposed to be like? If you invented it and are playing it shouldn't you get to decide how it behaves? How does that work?