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[Silverbullet]

As an Older guy who was once young. I have to go along with your Husband and the males,DIS. T'Pol is Vulcan and if you remember the e2 episode the old T'Pol never took another male (regardless of some Fanfics) So it would seem that neither would our T'Pol. Crystalwolfs story of Trip sharing T'Pol with Koss generated a lot of heat from males saying that would not happen. It wouldn't. NOT while Trip was alive. I belive that TPol would Honor her vows to Trip even after his death. Think that would be part of the Vulcan culture. Unfortunately much of Vulcan culture was not shown and Fic writers use thier imaginations.

I have never gone along with T'Pol and another male. That is why I don't care for Archer/T'Pol fanfic or the occasional T'Pol/Reed pairing. Canon (the Enterprise series never suggested that in any way. T'Pol showed no interest in Archer or Reed just Trip. that is what I go with.

But being male and probably hardwired that way I vote for T'Pol not hooking up with another male and Trip not encouraging her to.

Of course if T'Pol had three young children to consider when Trip gets killed that is another matter she might feel they need a Father figure. That falls in the gray area.

But all in all, I am with hubby and the rest of the guys.

SB

[WarpGirl]

Dead is dead! Why should a woman spend the rest of her life alone if her husband is dead, when let's face it, a man can get re-married without the slightest bit of guilt or recrimination?! That's horribly unfair and wrong!

[Silverbullet]

Who says a Man can remarry without guilt?

I have known a number of Men who never remarried because any new woman could not replace their Wife. There are men who marry for life even if the spouse dies. When they get old(er) they might move in with a child or if they can, continue to live alone.

It is not all one way. There are some (male and female) who don't even let the body get cold before they are walzing down the aisle again.

My wife swears I could nver get along on my own. That I would be helpless. She forgets that I was single until age 34 so I had practice living on my own.

SB

[WarpGirl]

I meant in terms of society SB not individual cases. Men as a society don't like the thought of their women re-marrying even if they're dead! It's selfish and wrong. But by and large men as a society think they should be able to re-marry and women should accept it.

[panyasan]

But society is made up of individual cases and the response of re-marry often have to do with the circumstances of that re-marry. I have an uncle how couldn't live being alone and married within a year. Because of his "I have to find me a wife real soon"-attitude, the family of his (first) wife had trouble with the re-marry. But another uncle of mine remarried as well, within two years, but everybody could see how well she (the second wife) was getting alone with the childern and how much she helped my uncle. So everybody was okay with it.
As for double standards: if a woman breaks down a men with her words and actions (neglect) it looks like society it's okay with that. When a male talks back, he is the guilty one. Some woman expect that the men should give and give - and give nothing in return. Mostly it takes two to fight and I don't think it is fair to put every responsibilty in a relationship on the male.

[WarpGirl]

You're right and I wasn't trying to put all of the responsibility on the men for relationships. But Dis wrote a story where Trip was dead, and men including her own husband said that moving on even for one night with the Katra's approval was wrong. I'm sorry, but that's wrong. Dead is dead. And if you take a poll asking men if they want their wives to move on after their deaths, most would probably say no, a good portion of them would lie and say yes. And only a small number would say yes and mean it. Whereas put the same poll to a group of women and a large portion of them would probably say yes, an eaqual portion would lie and say yes, and a smaller portion (realtive to the first 2) would say no.

[Silverbullet]

WG you are generalizing. As Pansyann says it is individual. Society is made up of individuals. Societies Mores change over time. Once Husbands buried three or more wives in a lifetime because of Childbirth fever. They had babies to contend with, support to provide so they needed some help. Other families could not because they had the same or other problems. that was the time when large families were the norm. It was rare for a woman to bury a husband bar an accident that killed him or a disease. Women remarried because they nneeded support too. In those days times were damned tough.

Now it is different. Women outlive men by five years on average but we have become a longer lived species at least in Japan, many European countries and the U.S. neither males or females bury spouses anymore. But there is a lively divorce rate. The binds that used to exist don't anymore. Yes, at one time spouses expected to be married to one person their whole lives and that was even after death. Not all, but many honored that.

Double standard. YUP. It prevaded much of relationshps between males and females, was very unfair. But the lot of women was unfair until relatively recently. Much of it still hangs on.

SB

[Distracted]

I suppose it's a good thing, then, that we have the opportunity as readers and writers to expect the fiction we read and write to transcend the injustices inherent in society.

[panyasan]

Dis wrote a story where Trip was dead, and men including her own husband said that moving on even for one night with the Katra's approval was wrong. I'm sorry, but that's wrong. Dead is dead. And if you take a poll asking men if they want their wives to move on after their deaths, most would probably say no, a good portion of them would lie and say yes. And only a small number would say yes and mean it.

This would an interesting subject to research. Maybe the outcome will surprise us. Any way, I don't want to be a nag, but I don't think the men responded to Dis' story, because Trip died and T'Pol moved on. While it's a while back since I read the story, my guess is that people took it as T'Pol was replacing Trip with a younger version and even when that version was somewhat Trip himself, they didn't like the idea. Which leaves us with a lot of interesting questions about cloning. I find it very interesting that in time of ENT cloning looks to be legal, but in the time of the Federation (as stated in an episode of DS9) cloning is illegal in the Federation. I wonder what inspirated the change.

[Distracted]

I always thought that the prohibition against cloning and against genetic tampering in general came after the Eugenics Wars, which were right before the Enterprise era. Khan and his augment gang were frozen and sent out in sublight drive ships as a form of punishment for attempting to take over the United Earth government. And they got shipped out before Earth had warp drive. Soong made the augments and he's middle-aged in the time of Enterprise, so the cloning would have to have taken place only a couple of decades before Enterprise at most, assuming Soong's clones age like normal humans and not like the "larva clone" that Phlox made of Trip. If Soong made them while he was in his 20's and they attempted their takeover just as soon as they reached their majority, the Eugenics Wars would have predated Enterprise by only a few years. Or possibly, based on the tidbits we got in the Augment Arc, maybe the Eugenics Wars were going on on Earth at the same time as the events we saw on screen. It's confusing because the writers never seemed to make anything but token attempts to follow TOS canon when writing their scripts.

But I really don't think cloning is legal on Earth during the time of Enterprise. I think Phlox did it anyway. I suppose he might not consider himself bound by Earth laws and ethics. Or maybe he thought that the circumstances justified breaking the law.

[Silverbullet]

Obviously Sim had not been written or shown as an Episode on TV. But it too brings up interesting quuestions. SIM was not human. He was a Desert Larvae. He mimiced a Human perfectly but was not human. In the deletd scene Sim tell T'Pol when she says Desert Larvae, "I want to rsearch my own species." Meaning that the clone knew it was not a human. So, T'Pol in the end of the episode seems to have generated feelings for the Clone as she kisses it passionately. What was the meaning of that Kiss and would she have done it had she realized that SIM was not a human but a larva. BTW, a Larva is just a stage the Larva that was Sim could have gone on to the next stage had it lived the full 15 days.

One of the reasons given today against cloning is someone would have a clone made for spare parts. But would the clone be a being or a spare parts bank? If it is deemd human then killing it for parts would be murder. Another interesting question: Since th eclone is an exact copy of a person and that person killed the clone would the person be commiting murder or suicide.

I read Charlie and didn't care for it or the premise. A pseudo Trip is not Trip and T'pol would be dishonoring Trips memory by hooking up with it.

SB

[Distracted]

In real science a clone is an identical twin of the donor. Killing a clone would be murder, not suicide. If the donor did it, it would be like killing their brother or sister. Clones are individuals in their own right. They would not have any memories but their own. They would be just as capable as any other human being of feelings and relationships, and shouldn't be considered to be "pseudo" anything any more than you'd consider one of a set of identical twins to be a "pseudo" version of the other one.

Cloning a sibling for source material for non-lethal donation isn't in my view any more horrific than conceiving a sibling for bone marrow donation, which has been done in real life, BTW. As long as the child which results from the procedure is loved and cared for just as much as the one who needed the donated tissue, I see no problem with it. Cloning an individual for the express purpose of killing that person to use his/her organs to sustain the donor is horrific, though, and I can see how people would want to ban cloning altogether in order to avoid that slippery slope. That and the prospect of a black market arising to create "replacements" for dead loved ones. Ewww.

I'm not sure how the "larva" thing was supposed to work, though. It was not really a clone in the true scientific sense, and it made absolutely no sense at all for the darned thing to have Trip's memories. But that's what we got, and for the purposes of fanfiction it's all we have to work with. If it was genetically part desert larva then its tissues would not have been a donor match for Trip and his body would have rejected them. But we can't look for loopholes like that because then none of it makes any sense at all.

The augments were not "larvae", though. Soong modified human embryos in his lab, taking genetic material from several source "parents" to create his idea of "perfect" embryos, which were then gestated to maturity, I'm assuming in surrogate mothers although I suppose we could postulate artificial wombs if we wanted to. The augments were fully human and not clones of any one individual. What caused the uproar is the fact that Soong created "supermen" who thought that they were entitled to rule mankind because of their inherent mental and physical superiority. He, in effect, created a race of "ubernazis". The United Earth government quite understandably didn't like that very much and so they made genetic manipulation illegal. Or at least that's the way I've always understood canon.

[Silverbullet]

DIS, me too. Genetic manipulation would lead to many evils. There would be more than one who would want an Army of supermen who obeyed him and conquered so he could rule absolutely without fear of being overthrown. Your use of UberNazis is interesting as the Nazis tried to use Genetics to breed a race of Aryan Supermen. Didn't work as the only way was by specific breeding of certain types: Blonde, Blue eyed, tall, etc. Unfotuantely many came out otherwise because of Recessive genes.

When you mention Trip's body rejecting foreign material that brings to mind the episode where Trip is impregnated by Ah'Len. Trip's body would have attacked, destroyyed or ejected the empryonic material she transfered to him as it was a forgin origin. Not his DNA It would fight it. Yet in the episode that did not happen. Phlox did nothing to prevent rthe rejection. that is one of the things about that episode that bothered me. Otherwise I liked the Episode very much as it was the first indication that T'Pol would get jealous of Trip having anything to do with another female.

clone, not suddenly appearing full grown. but first as a baby and growing up. It would have to grow at the pace of a normal Human which would be years. If the clone appeared full grown it would have no memories, education, experience. It would be a cypher. Until it aquaired all of those things it would be useless. Just another mouth to feed.

Soong probably had the right idea of not cloning but by genetics creating a species of superbeings. But that too is dangerous once those beings become aware and educated they would realize their superiority and do as the augments did, want to take over as they wouold feel they had a right to rule because of that superiority. Nazis felt the same way anyone not Ayran was an untermensch. good only to serve their masters.

SB

[WarpGirl]

Never mess with a doctor, (unless you know they're wrong) but I've never known Dis to be wrong.

[Asso]

You can not even imagine how doctors can be wrong.