One useful comment

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One useful comment

Postby justTripn » Sun Dec 12, 2010 6:34 pm

Guys, it has become increasingly difficult to monitor this board. People are leaving because of the conflicts. We are a very diverse group geographically and culturally and in terms of past experiences. PLEASE behave respectfully towards others or we will have no forum at all.

I wanted to preserve Distracted’s comment on whether it is OK to address rape or some other heinous crime in a story:

I'm probably going to regret stepping into this, and I haven't read the story in question, but can't we have a civil discussion without name-calling? Yes. Rape is a heinous crime. But if you consider mental invasion a form of rape, the series writers themselves wrote storylines in which T'Pol was raped THREE TIMES. So no one can say that using the "T'Pol gets attacked and her anguish over said attack brings her closer to Trip" scenario is unprecedented.

Shouldknowbetter has written some very fine stories. Just because this particular story is offensive to a particular reader doesn't mean that it is offensive to everyone. Offensiveness is often in the eye of the beholder. But even if you personally find this story offensive, think about it this way. Other fanfic writers have written stories in which awful things happen to Trip and/or T'Pol. These terrible things are used as plot devices to allow the author to show their version of how TnT as a couple would deal with such trama. Hurt/comfort stories are a well-known class of story, especially in TnT fanfiction.

That being said, everyone has their topics which they can never and will never enjoy reading about no matter how well-written the story is. I can certainly see how rape might be one of those topics, and I totally respect any individual's dislike of a story based on its subject matter. I have stopped reading more than one story because it turned my stomach. I have even made the mistake on one occasion of telling the author in the comments that I didn't plan to read any more of his work if he was going to write something so disgusting. I regret doing that now, because I really hurt his feelings and he obviously had no clue that the story would be so offensive to everyone. Based on that experience I am of the opinion that making broad statements that label a story as "abominable" can be very hurtful. Often an author has put honest emotion into their work, a part of themselves. Since my mistake I have been on the receiving end of reactions like Kotik's to one of my stories. Some people took it as a story about incest (it wasn't), and made comments that were very negative. It took me some time to get over that reaction. Shouldknowbetter isn't a contributer here, but I think we at least owe her enough respect to say "although this story is well written, I find the subject matter very offensive" and leave it at that.
For now, I will lock this thread as well, but if you all cool down perhaps in the future we can discuss it.
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Re: One useful comment

Postby justTripn » Sun Dec 12, 2010 6:44 pm

Elessar says the thread does not have to be locked. So . . . go ahead and discuss this if you can do it without vilifyiing anyone. Also, remember that no one has ever been banned from Triaxian Silk. And you don't want to be the first.
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Re: One useful comment

Postby justTripn » Sun Dec 12, 2010 8:27 pm

Triple post, sorry:

Why would anybody write about rape, insest, child abuse, abortion, miscarriages, torture, or wars with people’s limbs being torn off? Uh . . .

1) It’s dramatic. Think of your favorite movies, and you probably have to admit to yourself that your favorite movie contains a selection of the above. The last Star Trek movie had genocide and I loved that movie. Why do these shockingly horrible elements work? Because you can set up a great hurt/comfort story, or a hero overcoming great odds story, or even someone struggling valiantly and failing story using these elements.
2) Often the horrible element is condemned or mourned, so the story very visibly justifies itself by saying, “Here is a horrible action/event and here is why it’s bad.” And the perpetrator might come to a horrible end himself.
3) But that doesn’t always happen in real life. Maybe the perpetrator gets away, for instance. Maybe the victim can’t totally heal. There is also value in speaking the truth and saying that life is sometimes like this or that.
4) For me there is a certain satisfaction that comes from breaking taboos or stepping away from the usual formula. If someone says, THAT can’t happen (when it clearly can happen), or You can’t go there! something in me says, yes it can happen. Let me show you how.

I know that for each person who steps over the line from “nice story” to “not so nice story,” there is a particular reason. Probably some combination of the above. I also know that we ALL do it. And by ALL I mean every author currently on this site who I have read.
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Re: One useful comment

Postby Distracted » Mon Dec 13, 2010 3:54 am

I know I've done it. In my stories T'Pol has been shot, assaulted and nearly raped, Trip's been dead and "resurrected", Trip's dad has conspired with Terra Prime to kill T'Pol, and Hoshi has discovered her MU self in the RU and enjoyed doing it...a lot. :twisted:

Was all of that stuff nasty and violent? You bet. It was also interesting. And I told the story I wanted to tell.

It's not just content, though. The way the story is told makes a great deal of difference to me in determining whether I find it offensive or not. Some violence, mayhem, and offensive content is gratuitous. If it's written just so the reader/author can get aroused by a character's suffering then I personally would prefer not to read it. If the characters learn from it or the bad guy gets what's coming to him and the tale is well-written, then I'll keep reading.

Everyone has their own threshold for that sort of thing. One person's heart-wrenching angst is another person's maudlin c**p, for example. So, in my opinion, politeness is the key. Like my grandma used to say, "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all." I can usually find something nice to say. If I can't, I stop reading and keep my thoughts to myself. 8)

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Re: One useful comment

Postby WarpGirl » Mon Dec 13, 2010 4:32 am

Okay here's my thing, I wrote a story (not ST) were one character was raped, and another had a close call. I did not describe these events in any way. To me there was just no reason why graphic description is necessary for stories that deal with it. But it was a logical way to explain not only the Villian (who has major impulse control problems and is a total psycho) but also the actions of the women he hurt, and their motivations.

There are two ways to deal with the subject. The first is to focus on the act. These stories that describe in detail the violation of women are extremely offensive to me personally. So, baring that in mind I don't read them. If I stumble on to them, I click the back button. The second way to deal with the subject is to focus on the consequences. And I've seen many stories that do justice to the characters, and have learned a lot.

You know in my other fandom we have a guideline, If you know that you personally do not like something... be it a paring, a catagory, whatever; then avoid it. Don't go reading something you already know you hate, then rant at the author, (and people who enjoyed the story) it's just wrong. If someone you know and trust tells you they've seen a story that may make you have a new perspective, by all means branch out. But going and deliberately reading what you already know you don't like than attacking people afterwards is rude and unecessary. Nobody in any fandom forces anyone else to read their work or even comment on it. So there is no reason to launch attacks at anyone who writes something you don't personally care for.

Legitimate constructive criticism is PRICELESS, we all thrive on it. If a story doesn't work for someone they should be able to thoughtfully and respectfully explain why. But ranting about something that just isn't your thing is useless to everyone, including yourself. Because it isn't going to change the author's or other readers opinions.

You know I just remembered a review I got from a guy at the KOTOR site who absolutely hates a pairing I particularly adore. I mean this man loaths it. He's one of the SW's people that worship at the alter of George Lucas, BUT if George Lucas wrote this particular pairing himself, this guy would still hate it. That said, he left me with a review that was basically respectful, even if it did call me a bad writer. I figure I'll share it with you all...

Jeedai wrote:At first glance this chapter looks interesting enough. For example having Canderous musing about his past and the Mandalorians is a nice touch, even if it seem a bit of a white-wash of his clan. The remainder is a bit more doubtful
(I'll get to that). I can see that you seem to be trying to create some common ground between, and I don't quite think it works.

The chapter flows well enough and is fairly easy to read. However, I couldn't help but notice this:

Even if in Mandalorian years he was only five years older that Carth, it was still a huge age gap.
The minimum age for Canderous in Kotor is 53 Mandalorian years. So he would be a minimum of 15 years older than Carth. Since Canderous is canonically 63 Mandalorian years in kotor2, it seem likely that he would actually be around 58 Mandalorian years in Kotor and thus about 20 years Carth's senior.

Like I said earlier, I do think that there are some serious issues with this chapter (I'll try to keep it brief, but explanations has a way of resulting in long posts). Basically, what you attempt doesn't work because they are both highly out of character (OOC) here. For these two to get to the point where they would even consider confiding in one another would take a lot of careful characterization, none of which is evident in your story. The very brief exchange in an earlier chapter is nowhere near enough for them reach this point.

In a sort of order:

Canderous already did his musings about his past in-game (all the stuff up to and including Jaqi). Having him do so again, I think is not only contrived but also out of character. It would have worked before Canderous knew the pc was Revan, but not after, as he has his purpose, and meaning in life (following Revan).

Canderous' musings about the Clans being unethical doesn't really make any sense given his comments in the game. I think you are trying for an inner soft core in Canderous, but his comments and manners in the game make that interpretation unfounded and even contradicted by the game.

Canderous never shows the slightest interest in what any non-Mandalorian thinks,
so having him confide his inner thoughts in someone he doesn't trust or respect, like Bastila, (or any Jedi, possibly not even Revan) doesn't work and is also highly OOC for him.

Having him muse about Bastila's fiery spirit doesn't work either, as he judges people on what they think or believe (as is evident from his comments to Juhani, Bastila, Carth, and about the Jedi), not their fighting skills. Likewise it is OOC for him to think of Bastila, or any Jedi, except Revan, as a warrior. Their pacifism means he won't see them as such. Revan he can respect because Revan disobeyed the Jedi and the Jedi tenets, and cannot be considered a pacifist.

I noticed that you use some tired old ideas; that Canderous somehow have an issue with Xor, the raiders on Dantooine, and the Mandalorians on Kashyyyk,
that Bastila and Canderous argued a lot, and the Bastila is, for some reason, lonely after the Star Forge. While some of them may even be semi-fanon, they are all wrong.

Given Canderous own comments about taking them while they are young, there is nothing in the game to indicate that he despise Xor.

Canderous' only issue with the raiders on Dantooine is that they don't attack a worthy target (the Jedi). He is unconcerned that they raid and kill the farmers, since it is up to the farmers to protect themselves.

On Kashyyyk, his issue is that he recognise them as deserters from battle. He never says or do anything to suggest that he find attacking unarmed opponents a problem.

Consequently, having him think so is either unsupported by the game or contradicting it, and therefore OOC.

In a similar vein, in their banters both Carth and Bastila explicitly tell Canderous that they won't talk to him anymore about these things. So suggesting that Bastila and Canderous would continue to argue after that is nonsense, especially considering that Bastila acknowledges to the player that she has difficulties controlling herself. She is not going to find anything Canderous say stimulating, as his beliefs does not differ very much from those of the Sith. She would not seek out Canderous and it is highly doubtful he would bother seeking her out, since he doesn't respect her beliefs and by extension her.

Finally, the strange notion that Bastila would somehow be lonely and uncared for after her fall and redemption is completely ridiculous. She is surrounded by friends such as Juhani, Jolee, Carth and Revan. Besides them, there is the Order, several of which expresses concern for her in the game. Suggesting that Bastila should be lonely while surrounded by potential friends is nonsense and extremely contrived. She has plenty of people to turn to, people who care for her. She would never have any reason to consider confiding in Canderous.

There are other issues with the characterization of Bastila. As Canderous doesn't actually change the slightest in a better direction by the end of the game, she is going to have no sympathy or interest in seeking him out, regardless of what he feels. Having her suddenly be intrigued because he feels some regret and having her then seeking him out, asking him what is wrong, is contrived (and OOC).

The game makes it clear - with her comments and banters - what she thinks of things that Canderous approves of, so Bastila suddenly showing interest in or respect for the culture leading to those values isn't realistic.

Their banter, and their talk on Taris, also makes it clear what she think of him, and she does consider him like Xor, the raiders of Dantooine and Kashyyyk. His lack of change means that she has no reason to change her opinion of him.

The final scene with the loyalty is kind of nice, but it fails like the rest for them being OOC. She has no reason to know about or care about Mandalorian culture and customs, and certainly not perform anything with Canderous.

Sorry for the length. While I can see that you tried to create some common ground, it failed because of massive OOC. Just try to rename the two characters in this piece, and they become unrecognizable as anyone from the game. That is not good characterization.


Do I agree with this? Absolutely not! I never will, I have an entirely different read on both the characters in question. But I realize that there is absolutely nothing I can ever do or say to change his mind. That said, this is a respectful review. And if you're going to comment on something you couldn't stand than this is a pretty good guideline.
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Re: One useful comment

Postby Silverbullet » Mon Dec 13, 2010 2:22 pm

Jt, I can't think of any story I have written that has crossed the line. On the contrary they are probablhy too syrupy and sugery. That may be crossing the line.

I try to avoid stories that abuse T'Pol, have her sexcually assaulted, humilitated, etc. Like Asso I have too much affection for the character. Trip too for that matter. I would never write a story where either came ot any harm other than wounds of some kind.

Could I? Yes, as I put in the Yowling Rant I have seen a lot of this and hate it. It is burned in my memory so I could write this subject in vivid detail.

Those who to write it, fine. Those who read it and enjoy it also fine. Far be if from me to object.

But are we going to discuss stories, the one that Kotik referenced or the subject of Rape?


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Re: One useful comment

Postby justTripn » Mon Dec 13, 2010 2:46 pm

We are NOT going to discuss rape or specific stories. We are discussing why someone may or may not use that element in a story.
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Re: One useful comment

Postby WarpGirl » Mon Dec 13, 2010 2:53 pm

I think we're supposed to be discussing why it's okay to write about horrible things happening in fiction. And how to respectfully comment on something you personally find offensive. Call me crazy but I happen to think war, and genocide is pretty henious. Yet the subjects are brought up routinely in fiction, especially ST! There was an entire season of it. Subjects like: torture, misscariages, maimings, captivity, assualt, ect... are perfectly valid subjects for stories. And yes some people find them offensive, other people write them in ways that are offensive to people.

But the point is, it is not OK to rant and rave at the authors, simply because a person is offended. It is not OK to criticize readers who enjoy those stories.

There are ways to respectfully, make your point. If you are offended by something letting a person know that in a courteous manner is a good thing.

Even if you're not offended by something simply saying, this story stinks! is neither helpful to a writer or polite. As in the review I pointed out above, if a person has constructive criticism to offer a writer they should leave it. But the bottom line is, not matter who offends you, or what you don't personally like, there is a right way and a wrong way to make yourself heard. And again, if you know there is a type of fiction you absolutely hate... You're probably better off avoiding it as much as possible. Unless, like I said somebody you trust points you in the direction of a fic that might change your mind, or somebody you already love writes that fic themselves.

It is completely pointless for a person who hates Slash to hang out at a slash archive and leave long rants on how they hate slash. It accomplishes nothing and wastes everyone's time. How is it not the same for people who hate to read about TnT being put in situations like torture and assault?
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Re: One useful comment

Postby Elessar » Mon Dec 13, 2010 3:04 pm

There's plenty of media out there that uses rape as a literary element since art is, after all, an imitation of life... and unfortunately, that kind of evil does exist in the world. It happens every day, unfortunately :( , to good people. I think when you open the Pandora's Box of the human narrative - the story of the human existence, you get a lot of darkness along with a lot of light. It is in the depth and darkness and reach of those shadows that are cast that the truth of life and the substance of experiencing it are really illuminated. Look at this last season of Dexter, for instance. Excluding the finale, it was one of the finest pieces of television writing I've ever seen... and a large part of it was founded on what someone goes through in that situation.

I don't think anyone would condone glorifying it like "horror porn" you see in movies like Saw and junk like that, but I think it can serve a positive literary purpose.
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Re: One useful comment

Postby WarpGirl » Mon Dec 13, 2010 3:09 pm

Also people should consider how the subject is treated, before becoming quick to judge. Writers are people, just like readers. And they deserve the common courtesy all our fellow man deserve.
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Re: One useful comment

Postby Cogito » Tue Dec 14, 2010 7:58 pm

I have zero experience of rape in real life, thank god. I can understand how anyone who has had to deal with this first or second hand could be far more sensitive about it, and I respect that. I hope that doesn't mean we all have to bear their scars though.

I can think of three separate fanfic stories where poor T'Pol was raped. All three of them were quite brutally horrific although thankfully most of the horror was left to the reader's imagination - one of the few times that I was glad my imagination is so feeble. In each case I hated reading about the ordeal itself, but also in each case the story subsequently showed how Trip and T'Pol came through the experience and recovered together. Would the story have been enjoyable without that gruesome element? Probably. Would it have been *as* enjoyable? Perhaps not.

More recently of course poor old T'Rissa went through hell in the Lerteiran Chronicles before being rescued. I'm glad we only saw her experiences in brief flash-backs and second hand as she described her experiences, but the thought of what she went through is quite horrifying. But this wasn't gratuitous horror - it was essential to the plot and has eventually shown us how strong T'Rissa has been in surviving and recovering from the experience, with help from her friends.

One of the many clever writers here put it best: to overcome adversity, you have to have adversity. I hope it doesn't get used just for shock value or as a way to demean characters, and I'm never going to stop wishing it hadn't happened when I read about it, but angst does happen, and the best stories use it very cleverly.

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Re: One useful comment

Postby WarpGirl » Tue Dec 14, 2010 8:51 pm

You know sometimes your horrific experiences can help with stories, both understanding them, or writing them. My brother's daughter died not much older than Baby Elizabeth, and that loss helped me write TnT's different sets of grief. One of my sisters had two miscarraiges before giving birth to her son. If I ever write a story where TnT have to go through fertility issues, that can also help. Avoiding stories because of the bad parts of life, takes some of the richness out of life.

Also readers have to realize that even if a writer has the same experiences with certain bad things, that doesn't mean they'll have the same reactions. Not all people who lose children will react the same way, not all victims of crimes will react the same way. This is also a part of life and will (and should) come out in fiction. It's actually a positive thing to read something and say "Okay I had this experience and my reaction was different. Maybe I can take inspiration or learn something from this other reaction."

This is also a function of not only good fiction, but art in general.
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Re: One useful comment

Postby Silverbullet » Tue Dec 14, 2010 10:38 pm

I have only read one (1) story where T'Pol was Raped. Actually the whole female element of Enterprise were Raped. T'Pol was brutaly Raped several times by the leader of the Rapists.

Did this further the story? NO as the Rapists disapppeared from the story immediately afterwards and never appeared again. Was Trip aware of it? NO. did T-Pol recover from the ordeal. The whole story changed from that point. The Rapes were gratuitous. Could have bveen left out of the story with no effect on the story, none.

I don't care to read any other Rape of T'Pol. I think that Fanfic can do quite well with out it but is only my Opinion and not trying to push it on anyone else. There quite a number of other situations that Trip and T'Pol can be put in to make an ejoyable and exciting story. Again just my opinion and not asking anyone to share it.

There are so many stories on HOT and so mnay writers many of them brilliant. I have found a lot of stories that I have marked to read again because they were very good. I probably have ony read a tenth of the stories on HOT and hope someday to read all of them. I doubt if there will be but a very small handful that contain the Rape of T'Pol or Hoshi.

But for those of you who can tolerate that in a story all good and well.

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Re: One useful comment

Postby WarpGirl » Tue Dec 14, 2010 10:59 pm

SB this thread is not for this type of discussion. It is for discussing why authors use many types of tragadies in their work, and how to respectfully leave constructive criticism. This topic has put so much stress and pressure on our poor Administration team that it's time to just give them a break. Do we really want the forum to be shut down? Because I wouldn't blame the Boss, jT, Distracted, or any other Administrator for deciding it isn't worth the stress, ranting causes. They are real people with incredibly busy lives. They are not paid to run this site, or look out for us. They deserve better.
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Re: One useful comment

Postby Distracted » Wed Dec 15, 2010 12:16 am

Although I appreciate your efforts to protect the administrators' mental health, Warpgirl, I think SB's comment above was pertinent. He was sharing his experience with fanfic and his personal opinions, just as Cogito was a little farther upstream. SB just disagreed with the prevailing opinion. Just because he disagrees with some of us is no reason to tell him that he can't join the discussion. We can agree to disagree. And he was very polite.

Thank you, Silverbullet, for your input. 8)
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