Perception Of Disabilities In The 22nd Century

[panyasan]

Thanks Aikiweezie for correcting me on the episode. My memory of the episode it self was a little vague(and I wrote Geordi's name wrong ), but that conversation made an impact on me. I think you're right about the development of genetic engineering, but I think there are always going to be imperfections. Hopefully we don't end up in a society where there is no room for imperfections, we being all imperfect in one way or another. A perfect world sounds creepy to me.

[justTripn]

I do not think that deafness plus cocheal implants helps explain anything with regard to the ability to learn languages. Obviously he hears well enough to have learned English perfectly. The ability to learn languages is something that goes on inside the brain. Trip does not appear to have any current disabilities. In the future anything can happen and Trip plus disability is an interesting question to explore.

In my stories, I had an original character, a 16-year-old girl, the daughter of Phlox and Amanda, who was kidnapped by the Triannons and had her arm twisted by an anomoly. She didn't want it fixed because she had been living with the Triannons too long and like the Triannons, she thought it a scar from an anomoly was "cool." Everyone on Enterprise of course tried to convince her to have it fixed. I left that plot line dangle, but my presumtion was that over time she would re-aclimate to her native culture (Enterprise) and get it fixed. But no one forced her to do something she didn't want to do. It was left as her choice.

Also I gave my Trip Alzheimer's in his old age. Trip was defined in part by his genius. What if that were taken away? Would he still be Trip? I had people continue to care for him and respect him. They reminded him that he was a Captain and had done great things in his life. Hopefully that is the attitude that will prevail in the future: These things can happen to anybody, so it's best to respect those it happens to. Because it could very well one day happen to YOU!

[Silverbullet]

In a way Genetic Engineering has been a subject for discussion here on Earth for some time. In Germany there was a movement to create an "Ayran Race." Tall, blonde, blue Eyed, etc. Fairled because the technology was not available so it was tried by selective breeding.

My Father went stone deaf for two years. Never found out why. but when he recovered his hearing was far more acute than what it had been before the deafness.

Also, some things used to be looked upon as a disabiity such as being extremely thin or obese. they were thought to be abberant and the person would be pushed to the margins. The fact that those things could not be helped was ignored.

Ignorance was rampart when I was young. Imparied people were called "dummies" they were mocked. Probably the worst was those born with a Cleft lIp. Back then the surgery was imperfect and the person was left with a scar and a pronounced burr to speech. they would be mocked cruely, tricked, called dummies. Those people were just as intelligent and good as anywone but the difference was pounced on so others could feel superior. today with micro surgery that is athing of the past. I have not heard anyone speak with the lisp those people spoke with in years. They were called "Hairlips"

[WarpGirl]

Okay WOW, How is it that I didn't get into bed until 7am this morning and missed all of this?????????? What did someone put a bug in my computer and "say finally she's gone!" I'm trying to be funny but as I just dragged my behind out of bed, it's probably not working...

Where to start? And don't count on me making 100% sense because I hurt and I'm tired...

So the reason Trip isn't good in languages is because he is born deaf and has ear-implants which makes him able to hear? I don't want to burst anyone's bubble, but isn't the reason Trip has the implants so he can hear and learn languages? I am not saying good hearing is of influence when you learn language, but the main reason people have trouble learning language is that they don't have the talent for it. In Trips case it makes perfect sense: most people who are brilliant at science - engineering - maths (alfa people) are not good in other skills (that beta people are good at). Good example: master mind-professors who can't even boil an egg, because they don't have any pratical skills.

No Panyasan not quite, I'm not saying he can't learn languages because he was born deaf. People who are deaf without cochlear impants, can learn different languages. For example Helen Keller... And since his hearing is perfect with the implants I was thinking that it was more a psychological "block" than anything else. Personally, I know many people with "no talent: for learning languages, my sister for one, who have learned them. In fact she learned ASL and was an interpiter for our congregation for years. Her husband has tried to convince her to learn Chinese but that's not going to happen. And yes I know ASL not a "spoken" language, however, I can attest to the fact that you pretty much study it the way you would any language. I simply cannot believe how someone as brilliant as Trip, (in lots of areas, not just engines) is so convinced this is something he cannot do.

If Trip has learned Vulcan so quickly, I would say it was because of T'Pol excellent training combined with the bond helping him (if Trips humor was rubbing off on TPol, her Vulcan knowlegde could also rub off). I hope I don't offend, but the explanation of him suddenly speaks reasonable Vulcan because he was born deaf and wears implants, it's sounds a bit forced to me.

It was never my intention to make his implants do the work, and always the plan for it to be T'Pol and the Bond that helped him do it.

As for genetic diseases... Well, I have a husband who has one and managed to create a life, not without pain, but with an enjoyment for life. It does color my perception on the subject. I think the best discussion I ever heard in Star Trek about dissabilities/genetic discussion, is a conversation in TNG between Geordie and an woman from an alien race, who's society doesn't accept any flaws. She asked Geordie why he was aloud to be born, because he was blind. He answered that blindness is part of how he is and that he used technology to function, even when he is blind. He is proud of who he is. He is Georgie, who happens to be blind, not a blind man. I thought it expressed it very well.

I completely understand where you're coming from. My disability is not genetic but believe me I'm proud of who I am too. That's not the issue, although it's the issue I'm terrified of. But you must remember Geordie did have the VISOR to give him "sight" and later occular implants that allowed him to see like a "normal" (I hate that word) person. Obviously, he didn't have an issue of "curing" his blindness taking away who he is.

To go back to the legality for a moment... Bashir was born "slow," not with any particular defect, if I recall my DS9 correctly. He was Augmented fully for personal gain - even if it was his parents ordering the augmenting. But Picard was born with Shalaft's Syndrome, which, presumabily, requires gentic manipulation or intensive surgury in youth to fix, and was never looked down upon/scorned/arrested for it, as, again, it was a "quality of life" thing.

Not to put too fine a point on this but by that arguement nothing about genetic manipulation should be illegal. Quality of life is a personal issue and the only person who can determine their quality of life is the individual themselves. Not even parents or doctors can do that, believe me I know.

As an idealist I hope that in the future we become MORE accepting of "imperfections," "Variations" and disabilities of all kinds. Distracted's version of what might be freaks me out quite a bit. I think humanity learned a BIG lesson from the Eugenics War that the whole "new and improved humans" thing was a BAD idea.

Based on what I know about the current direction of the study of genetics, it should be possible in the next 100 - 150 years to either treat genetic problems in the parent, the embryo or the person by correcting the mistake on the affected strand of DNA or RNA . Also given where things like stem cell research is going, I would think that all kinds of neurological injuries will be correctable, making disabilities far more rare.

I pretty much agree with this, but then you still have the issue of when something goes wrong: do you fix it, or are you taking away from who the person is? As I said before, to me the only opinions that matter is the individual involved and their families.

I do not think that deafness plus cocheal implants helps explain anything with regard to the ability to learn languages. Obviously he hears well enough to have learned English perfectly. The ability to learn languages is something that goes on inside the brain. Trip does not appear to have any current disabilities. In the future anything can happen and Trip plus disability is an interesting question to explore.

I have a feeling the only way I'm going to be able to explain how I would work it out is to actually do it, and I haven't decided I will yet, so... Yeah I'm about to have a full blown panic attack. Again it's not that I'm ignorent of how all this works, I grew up around it. So maybe if I don't put it in my actual fic stories I'll write a snippet in a thread. IDK all I know is now I'm scared.

Also I gave my Trip Alzheimer's in his old age. Trip was defined in part by his genius. What if that were taken away? Would he still be Trip? I had people continue to care for him and respect him. They reminded him that he was a Captain and had done great things in his life. Hopefully that is the attitude that will prevail in the future: These things can happen to anybody, so it's best to respect those it happens to. Because it could very well one day happen to YOU!

How much kleenex did you need? I have to admit I'm a little confused, Alzheimer's by defintion takes away who a person is. That's the nature of the disease. But you're right people in that situation (or any other situation where they become disabled) are deserving of the upmost respect and care.

Ignorance was rampart when I was young.

Tell me about it. No offense SB my father's parents drive me crazy. If a say I have brain damage they start screaming at me, if I say I'm gonna use my crutches they demand I call them "sticks," if I say I'm disabled they yell at me to stop and say I'm not. It's like if they admit it, they have to admit they were raised to believe people like me should be institutionalized.

[Silverbullet]

WG, that was one of the chosen solutions "Warehousing" hiding the disabled in an institution. Back then somehow people thought it was shameful to have a family member who was mentally disabled. "Feeble minded" it was known as then. If the physical imparement was not that bad (wheel cair bound but normal otherswise) then the person would be kept at home. But one of the really bad physical disabities (drooling n the shirt and a blank look) Warehouse.

Society was not geared to empathy very much in the past, regardless of what is shown on TV these days.

Peopl e were frightened by someone who was "different" there have been cases of children being put in mental institution because the parents believed they were "Possesed" They simply were very intelligent but the parents were usully very religious and "Possed" fit better. One young man lived in an Institution until a doctor had him tested and found that he was brilliant but normal. the young man managed to live all of that time in an institution and came out sane. He taught himself to play the violin, piano, and learned some languaes. Others who went throough the same thing did not have the mental strength and were mentaly ill by the time someone tried to help.

Hell, women used to be burned as Witches because they were "different"

[panyasan]

I simply cannot believe how someone as brilliant as Trip, (in lots of areas, not just engines) is so convinced this is something he cannot do.

In the exchange between Hoshi and Trip both tell they envey the other for their talents. He doesn't say or indicates he is convinced he can't learn language, he only wished he could learn a language as easily as Hoshi. I think a lot of people wish they could learn a language as easily as Hoshi and still know/convinced they can learn a language. But not as easily as Hoshi does. The conversation is more about cheering each other up then about sharing in which areas you feel very insecure. That is at least the feeling I got from the scene.

Here is the transcript:

TUCKER: How many languages can you speak?
HOSHI: That's not how it works. There are a lot of common patterns. I'm just good at hearing them, that's all.
TUCKER: Good? You're a genius. The way you can pick up an alien language you've never heard before and start spouting it back to them? I got to tell you, I've always been jealous you can do that.
HOSHI: I wish I could fix warp engines with duct tape and a pocket knife.
TUCKER: It's a bit more complicated than that. Sometimes.

[WarpGirl]

Thanks for the transcript Panyasan but that wasn't the only episode where Trip expresses envy for Hoshi's talents. I'm thinking about Fight or Flight... Look at this...

HOSHI: How long before the transceiver's online?
TUCKER: A minute or two. I can't get enough of this. An alien spaceship sending off a message to who knows where.
HOSHI: The quicker we get this done, the quicker we can get back to the ship.
TUCKER: It's your second away mission in two days.
HOSHI: Yeah, great.
TUCKER: I wish I had an ear for languages. The Captain's going to need a translator with him a lot more often than an engineer.
HOSHI: Distress. Two other teachers and I once took a hydro-skimmer out onto a small tributary in the Amazon. You know, to see the wildlife. Sloths, pink dolphins, all kinds of snakes.
TUCKER: Wow.
HOSHI: It gave me the creeps. If I didn't like being around anacondas, you can imagine how I feel about Suliban or whoever butchered the crew of this ship. I'm going to ask the Captain to take me home.
TUCKER: You serious?
HOSHI: I should have never left the university. I'm not suited for this.
TUCKER: Give it a try. You'll be fine.
HOSHI: You weren't here yesterday. I saw those bodies and fell apart. The Captain needs a translator he can count on. Someone who shows a little grace under pressure. That isn't me.
TUCKER: You can't be sure of that.
HOSHI: Oh yes I can. Distress. Distress.
UT: Kunatsila.
HOSHI: I think I've got it. Ship in distress.
UT: Dukdum dor kunatsila. (Tucker transmits the message)

Now call me crazy (on such little sleep I'm more so than usual) but this is a guy who jumps into anything he can get anyone to teach him, look at how he got pregnant... Now here is the prime oppertunity for him to learn from arguably one of the best lignuists of that era, and all he says is "I wish I had an ear for languages" to me that doesn't make sense. Most of the time Trip at least asks for tips if he's really interested in a subject. And I'm certain he's mentioned his interests at other times as well, yet he never acted on them, I gotta ask why???? It doesn't add up for me.

[Brandyjane]

I don't think you have to give him a reason for not being as good at learning languages as he would like to be. In another episode he made the comment to T'Pol that history was never his subject. My own thought on the matter is that languages might not come as naturally to him as some other subjects, like math and science, so he just never bothered to learn. I don't want to imply that Trip is lazy, because clearly he isn't, but I see this all the time with the kids I teach. I will often have an incredibly bright kid who is used to making A's without a lot of effort, but if they encounter a subject that they are not as naturally good at, one which requires them to really stop, study, and think, they convince themselves they're no good at it. Sometimes these kids still manage to pull off an A or B with effort, but they still say they just aren't good at ________. Meanwhile, the more average kids who have to put forth a lot of effort in most classes, might get a lower grade than the "smart kid" but don't perceive that they're "bad" at the subject. That's how I always perceived Trip's comments about languages and history.

However, having written all that, I actually hope that you do go with the idea that Trip was born deaf. I don't think you have to do it to explain how he learns Vulcan so fast despite his previous comments about languages. I do think it would give your story a really interesting twist. I'm a sucker for novel back stories for these characters.

If you're worried about offending people, you could have Trip explain that his parents debated whether or not they should get the implants, but finally decided to do it because they were a really musically-inclined family or something like that. Realistically, I really do think that in the future people will utilize things like cochlear implants without a second thought. However, to avoid offense, you could acknowledge the controversy within the story.

[WarpGirl]

Oh I know I don't have to do it. Ironically that's what my Beta told me, she said "I don't think it's necessary." I know. But I find it an irritating discrepency in his character. He would like to be able to do something and he just says he can't... Not the Trip I saw... I'd agree that it might just be disinterest, which probably does explain his History grades... if he hadn't expressed envy and interest multiple times. The Trip I saw, if he was really interested in something ran right in there and kept at it!

[Brandyjane]

Well, I'm going to be the cheerleader for this idea. Do it! Do it! Do it!

[WarpGirl]

My first cheerleader in ST fanfiction! Thank you, but no hard and fast decisions for now. I'm swamped. But I figure its the same plot device as giving another character a challenge in their pasts. And in my case Trip does not have to overcome this challenge at all, it's done, he's fine, but the impact lasts even if he's not conscious of it.

[aadarshinah]

Though to be fair, the rate at which Hoshi learns new languages is ungodly fast. Even if you're moderately good at languages, the speed at which Hoshi manages it insane. Perhaps that was what Trip meant by "ear" for languages.

[WarpGirl]

True, but I've seen no evidence that it was just Hoshi's unique abilities Trip was impressed with. Trip's not that kind of guy, he idolizes people whom he considers brilliant and wants to learn from them. Remember Emory Erickson??????? So my thing is why is Trip basically saying "I can't learn another language." He has the intelligence, abilities, and dedication to try, yet he never asks Hoshi.

The only answer I can come up with is "mental block" and I'm just trying to find a compelling reason for him to have one. I thought, in the scenario I'm considering, he could subconsciously be affected by missing out on crucial months of language development, and several years of intensive speech therapy, and equating learning languages with that experience. One which he does not have clear conscious memories of...

[justTripn]

@ WarpGirl: About Trip and Alzheimer's, yeah I used some kleenex on that one, lol . . . On the other hand I cheated slightly to show a best-case scenario of someone with that disease.

@ Silverbullet. I saw alot of refugees with unfixed cleft lip and it was always so startling and sad. The children with this facial deformity, played with one hand over their mouths. That was the "solution." Fortunately, there are several organizations dedicating to eradicating this particular problem: Operation Smile for one. For a few hundred dollars they can do the operation on one child using volunteer doctors. For a few hundred dollars, you can litterally change someone's life.

@WarpGirl and Brandyjane: I understand Trip's frustration with language and I don't have any official disability. I used to get A's and B's in most of my classes and C's in languages. Then when I did learn a language it was alot easier to speak than to understand what was coming at me, the opposite of most people's experience. Although I did meet one or two others like me. I just chalk it up to brain wiring. Oh yeah, and plenty of teachers told me it was only my "fear" that was preventing me from understanding.

[Silverbullet]

JT, as you know many of the Asian Languages are Tonal. The inflection can change the meaning of a word that sounds similar but the meaning changes with the inflection. My wife could pick that up but I am tone deaf. I listen to Music nd love it but found out that I really wasn't hearing what others hear. I have even once heard in only half tones. wierd. I was listening to a Beethoven work that I am very familiar with and only heard half tones. Caused by an Air conditioner blowing directly on my head from about two feet away.