Archer as Captain

Romulans, phase-inverters, friendships, OH MY!

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Rigil Kent
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Re: Archer as Captain

Postby Rigil Kent » Sun Sep 26, 2010 9:56 pm

Alelou wrote:All I know is that I've seen grown men on this forum swear that they would never have anything to do with T'Pol again after what she said that morning.

And I'm one of those grown men. And that's not even taking into account the other crap she pulled later on down the road. The notion that its immature (if I'm reading WarpGirl's comment correctly) to get the hell away from the train wreck that was romantic involvement T'Pol doesn't really make sense to me; if anything, I see it as one of those types of relationships where, as long as you're not actually involved with it (e.g., it's a friend getting involved with a nutjob), you can clearly tell that its a Very Bad Idea and will not end well (which, honestly, if you go by all the angst and general pain of season 4, it didn't end well, especially if the canonical ending of the relationship as hinted at by the fraknale is taken into account.) So yeah, I'd have gotten as far away from her as I possibly could after "Harbinger."

But then, I'm not a fictional character like Trip.

I've actually toyed with the idea that Archer had a flirtation with Terra Prime back in the day, but it just doesn't work for me because he wants to be an explorer and what's the point of exploring if you're a xenophobe? No, his issues with Vulcans seems to be only limited to Vulcans and, truthfully, I never really bought that he totally got over those issues entirely. Sure, he seemed to like T'Pol, but she was pretty far from a "normal" Vulcan (what with all the emotional outbursts that he witnessed firsthand), and he appeared to tolerate Soval in season 4, but even during the Vulcan arc, I personally perceived a bit of scorn directed toward them. Might just be me.

Of course, those issues are initially what I kind of liked about the character because they made him different from the usual cookie cutter Trek template and I was looking forward to seeing him evolve past them. Unfortunately, the development of his character wasn't as effective as it could have been...
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Re: Archer as Captain

Postby Silverbullet » Sun Sep 26, 2010 11:46 pm

Still don't know what episode T'Pol was asked to be FO.

Of course I think that I will let that lie.

Trip might have some resentment at Archer for boosting him out of the FO position becuase it would be a humilitation. Archer would be saying to the crew that Trip was incompetent to hold the position. Trip might go around to the crew and say he goes along with the change and that would help.

I guess that Trip doesn't have a whole lot of Pride given the Crap he put up with from T'Pol.

But I like trip and feel he is better than that. He could hold down both position as FO and Chief Enginer if the Engineering staff handled the day to day stuff. He would then only be needed in Emergencies.

I have always thought that the relationship between Archer and T'Pol was mishandled. He should have treated her as a valued member of his crew and left the HOTs at the door.

that was the problem with Ent. Either Archer or Trip could be the Love interest for T'Pol. They should have had a female in Trips place or an older married man in Archers. They still could have had a competent Captain in Archer just left out the Sexual RTension that goes with a Beautiful woman.

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Re: Archer as Captain

Postby Silverbullet » Mon Sep 27, 2010 1:17 am

Double post. The morning after in Harbiner Trip had every right tothink that the night before was special and that he was special to T'Pol. When she said it was an exploration by extension she was saying it could have been with anyone. Just that Trip was available becasue they were having a NP session. She ripped his manhood out of him. Since shd had no Rank (a civilian) she could have got it on with Travis, Malcom, Archer or any other male on board. She basicaly told Trip that. An exploration is so cold. Says that the night before had no meaning for her other than scientific curiosity. How would that make him feel. Excuse the language but she Cut his Balls off.

Problem with Harbinger the viewers were cheated. The seduction scene was cut off we didn't see them in bed talking afer Sex. We didn't know how many times they had Sex. NOthing. They must have said soemthing that night. What she did was with malice of forethought. She ordinarily wore Pajamas. she was naked under the Robe that was planned. She knew what she ws doing she wanted to do it. so that morning after scene was BS.
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Re: Archer as Captain

Postby WarpGirl » Mon Sep 27, 2010 2:20 am

Oh God I swore I wouldn't do this, I swore I wouldn't but for God's sake I am tired of people saying I said things I did not say!

Alelou You brought up the events in Harbinger and only Harbinger!!!!!!!!!! Yeah Trip has no maturity if holding a grudge with T'Pol just based on that. Given his behavior with sex in the past!

Rigil Kent wrote:And I'm one of those grown men. And that's not even taking into account the other crap she pulled later on down the road. The notion that its immature (if I'm reading WarpGirl's comment correctly) to get the hell away from the train wreck that was romantic involvement T'Pol doesn't really make sense to me;


No Rigil WarpGirl absolutely did not mean that! What I mean was that if she gave him no promise and he asked for no promise during the night of Harbinger then he had no reason to hold a grudge against a woman he doesn't even realize he loves at the time! And again the man is 33 years old and has already had 1 one-night-stand of his own during his time on Enterprise. I'm not a man but where the h-e-double hockey-sticks does he get off being so superior!

As for T'Pol's other "crap" well my question is if she's so unworthy of a man sicking around then why bother with her at all?

SB Who said they did talk? Neither of them acted like they did the night before. So in my opinion she didn't promise anything, and so therefore he shouldn't expect anything.

Maybe I'm not experienced enough to understand the dynamics here. But I prefer to think of Trip as a mature man able to deal with the consequences of that night in the Expanse where there was no commitment between them. There were other instances in their relationship where Trip has good reason to bail (E2) but IMO Harbinger he had no right to expect something he didn't even say he wanted!

Can we get back to Archer please?:?????????
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And by people WG had herself in mind, but then the quote would have been ruined.
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Re: Archer as Captain

Postby aadarshinah » Mon Sep 27, 2010 2:33 am

Idk WG... With the princess, there was no expectation of a relationship as they knew they'd never see each other again. With T'Pol. it certainly seemed, at least from an outside perspective, like they were working towards an relationship before "Harbringer". Unlike with the princess, Trip and T'Pol went into their one-night stand with entirely different expectations, which is what makes it so awful in my opinion. Because it's one thing to have a one-night stand with a virtual stranger, and it's another to have oen with a co-worker you resepect, have to see every day, and have strong feelings for.

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Re: Archer as Captain

Postby Rigil Kent » Mon Sep 27, 2010 2:37 am

WarpGirl wrote:
Rigil Kent wrote:And I'm one of those grown men. And that's not even taking into account the other crap she pulled later on down the road. The notion that its immature (if I'm reading WarpGirl's comment correctly) to get the hell away from the train wreck that was romantic involvement T'Pol doesn't really make sense to me;


No Rigil WarpGirl absolutely did not mean that! What I mean was that if she gave him no promise and he asked for no promise during the night of Harbinger then he had no reason to hold a grudge against a woman he doesn't even realize he loves at the time! And again the man is 33 years old and has already had 1 one-night-stand of his own during his time on Enterprise. I'm not a man but where the h-e-double hockey-sticks does he get off being so superior!

As aadarshnah points out,there's a pretty big difference between the events of "Precious Cargo" and "Harbinger." In the former, both involved characters went into the situation knowing what to expect and what was going to happen. They had sex, enjoyed it, and moved on. In the latter, T'Pol seduces Trip after getting jealous, then, when he very clearly is attempting to do the "relationship" morning after speech, complete with a bright smile, she blows him off and basically tells him "thanks for the sex. Been meaning to do a human." Switch the genders and tell me you wouldn't howl with outrage if Trip effectively told her something similar. Yeah, no promise was made (that we know of) during "Harbinger," but they'd been building a relationship over the course of that season so the sex is a lot more important than the one-night stand he had with Fishstick.
As for T'Pol's other "crap" well my question is if she's so unworthy of a man sicking around then why bother with her at all?

Which is frankly my point. In real life, most men wouldn't bother with a woman as wildly inconsistent and as screwed up as T'Pol was. The woman has issues above and beyond simply being Vulcan and, since this is television, they're magnified for dramatic effect to the point where sane guys would run screaming from her the moment they figured out she was batshit crazy.

And I like T'Pol. But I can still admit that she's a train wreck waiting to happen.
Maybe I'm not experienced enough to understand the dynamics here. But I prefer to think of Trip as a mature man able to deal with the consequences of that night in the Expanse where there was no commitment between them. There were other instances in their relationship where Trip has good reason to bail (E2) but IMO Harbinger he had no right to expect something he didn't even say he wanted!

Yeah, I think it is lack of experience there because I don't see how anyone can argue that Trip shouldn't be expecting some sort of commitment, not with them already having laid the groundwork for the relationship to that point w/the VNP and then with remarks like the one she gave him in "Rajiin" about it not being Reed's business if she and Trip were involved. Hence, there are some significant mixed messages coming from her which is why I side entirely with Tucker on this regard. As to him not saying what he wanted, well, that I contest because he clearly about to tell her that but let her speak first. Which nuked his plan.

The argument about E2 doesn't really make sense to me; are you talking about the real-time stuff or about the stuff in that past?
Can we get back to Archer please?:?????????

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Re: Archer as Captain

Postby Rigil Kent » Mon Sep 27, 2010 3:35 am

Going back to the notion of Archer having toyed with Terra Prime sort of influences in the past, how do you think something like that would affect the crew morale if it came out post Demons/Terra Prime? Say,for example, during Paxton's trial, his defense lawyers try to slime everyone (as defensive lawyers for utter scum so often do) and it comes out that Archer attended one of those kind of rallies in his teens or early twenties.
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Re: Archer as Captain

Postby Brandyjane » Mon Sep 27, 2010 11:19 am

I had this idea that maybe six months after "Terra Prime," someone sends the media an old photo of Archer standing next to Paxton at a pre-Terra Prime meeting. Trip sees it before Archer and come to his ready room to confront him about it. Archer points out that it was twenty years ago and he honestly didn't remember meeting Paxton. He was approached by some people who wanted to start a political party that took a harder line against Vulcan interference. He went to a couple of meetings and initially thought they had some good ideas, but when someone (not Paxton) took him aside and explained their real objectives, he bailed. He completely disassociated himself with them because (1) he's not a xenophobe and he doesn't hate Vulcans, and (2) he knows it would be a bad career move for a Starfleet officer and explorer.

Trip understands and doesn't hold a grudge, but he wants to know why Archer didn't tell him that he'd encountered these people before. After all, they're supposed to be such good friends. Doesn't Archer trust him? Archer responds with a question about why, if they're such good friends, Trip never came out and admitted he was with T'Pol. Archer and Trip have a big talk and renew their friendship.

After that Archer has to fight to save his reputation as the public believes he's part of Terra Prime.

I had this general idea, but I don't know what to do with it. I have a hard time with post-season three fiction, mainly because the relationship between Trip and T'Pol was such a train wreck and I don't know how to deal with that mess without going completely AU. If anyone likes the general idea, it's up for grabs.

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Re: Archer as Captain

Postby Silverbullet » Mon Sep 27, 2010 3:35 pm

First, WG, there is no way that Trip and t'Pol can have sex and not talk afterward. Impossible. If she was a complete strager he had just met somewhere he still would talk to her about something. They both knew one another she had seduced him. They obviously had something going between them. They HAD to disucss that in some manner.

In the morning when he draws coffee his face reflects his hapiness. He expects her to be the same. she ripped him apart. That is why he was so surprised. They had said things the night before he had a right to expect that what she said was the truth. Now, in the morning she is denying everything. Saying that it was just a meaningless eperiemt. They said something.

WG, I speak from experience. I NEVER spent the night with a female in complete silence.

RE Archer and Tera Prime. Doubt it. I think that when he reveals they had learned about the other guy being a member when young that might have aroused the other guy to look into Archers past as a defense. don't beliee Archer would go there. He might dislike Vulcans but it would be a private dislike he would harbor in himself.

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