Archer as Captain

Romulans, phase-inverters, friendships, OH MY!

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Re: Archer as Captain

Postby aadarshinah » Sun Sep 26, 2010 3:30 pm

I think the only aliens he's ever really had a problem with are Vulcans, for the obvious you-kept-my-father-down reasons. Not enough to actively hate them, but enough for some dislike to colour his interactions with them.

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Re: Archer as Captain

Postby WarpGirl » Sun Sep 26, 2010 3:34 pm

When it comes to Vulcans Archer has a lot of seething resentment. I think there are more reasons for it than just his father. Then again I think Archer might have confused his father's professional frustration, for true anger and dislike. Of course, his father's illness must have colored his outlook on things. My feeling is Henry Archer's "issues" as seen by his son, are actually the excuse Archer gave himself for his own problems with Vulcans.
Some of these people haven't taken their medication. Let's see what happens now...
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And by people WG had herself in mind, but then the quote would have been ruined.
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Re: Archer as Captain

Postby Brandyjane » Sun Sep 26, 2010 3:52 pm

I'm imagining a really young Archer being attracted to that kind of rhetoric - late teens, early twenties, perhaps not too long after his father's death. What I was thinking about was maybe Archer was approached by someone, went to a few meetings, initially agreed with what he heard, but then started feeling uneasy about it and began to actually feel repulsed by the rhetoric as he realized they were actually xenophobes. I doubt I'll actually get around to writing a story about this, but I was wondering how Trip would react if he found out that his good friend had once associated with those people, even if it had only been for a few weeks or months.

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Re: Archer as Captain

Postby WarpGirl » Sun Sep 26, 2010 3:57 pm

Truth be told, I don't think Trip would freak. He's a really good-hearted, loyal to a fault, forgiving guy when it comes to the people he loves. Plus I think he knows the concept of youthful indescresion. People make stupid mistakes when they're young, people even make stupid mistakes as adults. So I don't think it would have been an issue. That said I really can't see Archer being attracted to entirely "anti-alien" rhetoric. But I'm sure there were groups out there that just couldn't stand Vulcans.
Some of these people haven't taken their medication. Let's see what happens now...
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And by people WG had herself in mind, but then the quote would have been ruined.
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Re: Archer as Captain

Postby aadarshinah » Sun Sep 26, 2010 4:26 pm

He's too much of an explorer to ever have really felt "anti-alien". He may have resented them for his father, may have resented them for their interfearence in his own Warp 2 and Warp 5 projects, but actively hated them? I think he might've been approached by people who saw his resentment as anger/hate, but actually going to a meeting? No. Dont' see it.

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Re: Archer as Captain

Postby WarpGirl » Sun Sep 26, 2010 4:34 pm

Okay I'm really terrified to take this too far... But I don't think Archer's issues were mere distrust or dislike. I think he has some really deep set issues when it comes to Vulcans. However, I think he only let the dislike and distrust out in public. I think the more insideous emotions and thoughts he pushed as deep down as he possibly could. His ambition was simply more important than his personal outlook. And even then I think he wanted to deny his own darker point of view as much as he could. I think his attraction and relationship with T'Pol is interesting because until the Vulcan arc his attitude was, yeah she's a Vulcan but she's not one of them. And it's the them that he hates.

It's interesting to explore what would develop when he realizes that his perceptions of the them in his mind, and the reality are far different.
Some of these people haven't taken their medication. Let's see what happens now...
Donna Moss: The West Wing


And by people WG had herself in mind, but then the quote would have been ruined.
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Re: Archer as Captain

Postby Brandyjane » Sun Sep 26, 2010 7:12 pm

I never thought he actually hated the Vulcans. I think he definitely had deep-seated mistrust toward Vulcans as a whole, and personal dislike of certain Vulcans. I could be wrong, but I don't think he would have been so quick to ask T'Pol to stay aboard if he genuinely hated Vulcans.

In the scenario I'm toying with, Terra Prime as we know it doesn't exist yet. No one outside the inner circle of this pre-Terra Prime group knows what their true objectives are. Archer is approached because he is a pretty high-profile, though very junior, member of Starfleet who has spoken out a few times in the past against the Vulcans' intrusions in the Warp program. He goes to a large-group meeting or two where the rhetoric isn't that extreme. Mainly the talk is just about how Earth needs to be more independent and stop asking permission from the Vulcans before proceeding with each step. People like Zephram Cochrane and Henry Archer are highly praised. Lip-service is paid to the help Vulcan gave to Earth in the past, but the focus is on how Earth's government needs to be firmer. There is no ugly talk at the first meeting or two. No other aliens are even mentioned. Archer finds himself in agreement with what he hears. Someone - maybe Paxton's father or his partner - misconstrues Archer's real problem with the Vulcans, thinks he probably sees things like they do, takes him aside, and lets him in on the real objective. Archer immediately walks away because (1) he doesn't actually hate Vulcans or any aliens, and (2) he's smart enough to know that connection with a group like this would hurt his chances for advancement within Starfleet. Time passes and he basically forgets about it until the events of Terra Prime.

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Re: Archer as Captain

Postby WarpGirl » Sun Sep 26, 2010 7:28 pm

Well the fact that he did ask T'Pol so fast, never made sense to me...

The only problem I have with the scenario is that I remember Paxton saying Terra Prime existed for a very long time. But I just re-read the transcript and I was wrong!
Some of these people haven't taken their medication. Let's see what happens now...
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And by people WG had herself in mind, but then the quote would have been ruined.
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Re: Archer as Captain

Postby Brandyjane » Sun Sep 26, 2010 7:51 pm

I've thought about doing an AU rewrite to "fix" a few relatively minor things from the first couple of seasons. One thing I'd do differently is let it be Admiral Forrest, not Archer, who asks T'Pol to stick around for a month or so to help Archer put some protocols in place and give the crew some extra training in dealing with unexpected, dangerous situations. Archer would be torn between logically realizing that she'd saved their butts after they lost Klaang and resentment that Admiral Forrest and Starfleet felt it necessary to stick him with a Vulcan chaperon. Then, as they run into one problem after another and T'Pol clearly knows what she's doing, I'd have Archer put in the request to keep her around on a more permanent basis. At that point I'd have him stop acting like a jerk toward her. It always bugged me that HE asked HER to stay, and then he proceeded to scowl at her constantly, roll his eyes at her suggestions, etc. so much. He treated her better as the first season progressed, but I never could reconcile the Archer who was so quick to ask her to be his first officer with the Archer who could be downright rude to her at times. Of course, that's another example of the character's inconsistency that we've all been discussing, isn't it?

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Re: Archer as Captain

Postby WarpGirl » Sun Sep 26, 2010 7:57 pm

Actually your solution to make T'Pol stay is actually the first one I've seen that is completely practical. In my head I always had the Government of Vulcan and the Government of Earth have a deal where EarthGov gives orders to SF and SF gives orders to Archer. But the deal is so hush-hush that it looks like Archer asked.
Some of these people haven't taken their medication. Let's see what happens now...
Donna Moss: The West Wing


And by people WG had herself in mind, but then the quote would have been ruined.
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May We Together Become Greater Than The Sum Of Us
*Rights,* Wrongs, and Choices

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Re: Archer as Captain

Postby Brandyjane » Sun Sep 26, 2010 8:10 pm

Actually, the secret deal scenario is my explanation for why she's first officer. I figure that after Archer lets it be known he wants to keep T'Pol aboard permanently, the Vulcans object that she's too senior to be the science officer for a mere human vessel. If he wants a Vulcan officer aboard permanently, they'll send him a more junior science officer. Archer pitches a fit because he doesn't want just any Vulcan, he wants her. Starfleet backs him up. The Vulcans really want to keep one of their own aboard, but they have to pretend like it's a huge sacrifice and they need something in return. Starfleet doesn't really want a Vulcan officer, but they want their man Archer to get what he wants. Neither side will budge. The compromise is that he can keep T'Pol, but he has to make her first officer. That then leads to all sorts of other behind-the-scenes wrangling over security clearance and other issues like that. Archer is hesitant to take the FO position away from Trip, but Trip confesses he's a little overwhelmed anyway, so Archer gives the go-ahead.

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Re: Archer as Captain

Postby WarpGirl » Sun Sep 26, 2010 8:16 pm

See I don't know if I'd say Archer liked her enough to put up such a fight in season 1. To tell the truth I'm not sure he started liking her at all until he was confronted with the fact he had the hots for her in A Night In Sickbay. All the times he defended her before seemed to be because she was a part of his crew and therefore represented Enterprise and him! So if he didn't defend her he would make himself look bad. And if I'm really honest I'd say there were moments in seasons 3 and 4 where I still wasn't sure he liked her. :banghead:
Some of these people haven't taken their medication. Let's see what happens now...
Donna Moss: The West Wing


And by people WG had herself in mind, but then the quote would have been ruined.
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May We Together Become Greater Than The Sum Of Us
*Rights,* Wrongs, and Choices

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Re: Archer as Captain

Postby Alelou » Sun Sep 26, 2010 8:26 pm

Brandyjane, you can do the kind of story you're talking about and I'm sure do a good job of it. The only hesitation I would have is that Archer reacted pretty strongly to Samuels' own youthful indiscretion ... and I would think he'd be a little less quick to do that if he had the same sort of youthful indiscretion.

Though who knows. Sometimes people actually react most brutally to the very things they find most shameful in themselves.

You could make it work.

I do think Trip would be fairly forgiving, though. Hell, a lot of ff writers have Trip's own parents in Terra Prime and he usually manages to forgive that too. The man is not really one for holding grudges. If he were, T'Pol would never have gotten past "Harbinger" with him.
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Re: Archer as Captain

Postby WarpGirl » Sun Sep 26, 2010 8:28 pm

Alelou wrote:If he were, T'Pol would never have gotten past "Harbinger" with him.


Sorry, I'm laughing hysterically right now at the maturity level of that type of grudge. :guffaw: :guffaw: :guffaw: :guffaw:
Some of these people haven't taken their medication. Let's see what happens now...
Donna Moss: The West Wing


And by people WG had herself in mind, but then the quote would have been ruined.
Fics
May We Together Become Greater Than The Sum Of Us
*Rights,* Wrongs, and Choices

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Re: Archer as Captain

Postby Alelou » Sun Sep 26, 2010 9:12 pm

All I know is that I've seen grown men on this forum swear that they would never have anything to do with T'Pol again after what she said that morning.

And after she married Koss.

And after "Daedalus."

And after "Divergence."

Etc. Etc.

But you are welcome to laugh as hysterically as you'd like.
OMG, ANOTHER new chapter! NORTH STAR Chapter 28
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Read opening chapters free at Amazon (US): The Awful Mess: A Love Story
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