Archer as Captain

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Re: Archer as Captain

Postby aadarshinah » Sat Sep 18, 2010 3:43 pm

I feel the same WG. Too close to my dad's age... nope, just looked it up, he's 10 years older than my dad. He's great looking, but again, not for me.

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Re: Archer as Captain

Postby Alelou » Sat Sep 18, 2010 3:54 pm

Silverbullet wrote:Alelou, it is the imp in me. I am a bad boy because I say these things to get a rise some times.


8) It worked.
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Re: Archer as Captain

Postby panyasan » Sat Sep 18, 2010 4:09 pm

My favorite communication model is the reference model. It means that every message that we hear or see goes through a filter. A filter made of past experience, believes, personality etc. It means that when one person hears or sees a message it will interpretated it differently then another person who hears/sees the same thing.

So people will see the same actor, but jugde him differently. Their jugdement is colored by their previous experience of the actor in another shows. They even jugde a character because they don't like the way they looked. If you find some one really attractive, you sort of forget sooner the lesser part of his character. (Archer isn't my type - but neither is Trip, but I like Trip character more.)
Also they jugde the character on his actions on the show. If they get really annoyed by his actions, for example that he didn't kick Tolaris out of an airlock or steal a warp core, even when he give the performance of a life time, they not going to like him. They still see it as "bad acting".

It works the other way around. One of my beta's and I used to talk how T'Pol showed some much of what she was thinking with the expressions in her eyes. Like a woman trapped in a cultural enviroment that made her act the way she did. So with that filter I looked to T'Pol and loved the performance and her.

As for Archer, I think the fact that he was captain give him a lot of credit. It seemed like as a Star Trek you have to like the captain. In my humble opinion the writers went overboard with this sentiment and forced a sort of hero rule on Archer. Which was an uncomfortable position for Bakula to work with.

Which brings me back to the original question: how was Archer as captain? And what is a good captain? I don't think Archer was a very good captain, given his personality, but he tried to make the best of it concidering the circumstances.
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Re: Archer as Captain

Postby aadarshinah » Sat Sep 18, 2010 4:22 pm

panyasan wrote:It's funny, but this thread is just like that model. People jugde a character of Archer based on their previous experience of the actor in another shows.


Agree so much. Conner has a 5-min part on an episode of The Closer in which he was quite unlikable - I mean, that was the part he was playing, you were supposed to hate him, and he was very good in it - and it was almost painful to watch, because he was so unlike Trip....

panyasan wrote:As for Archer, I think the fact that he was captain give him a lot of credit. It seemed like as a Star Trek you have to like the captain. In my humble opinion the writers went overboard with this sentiment and forced a sort of hero rule on Archer. Which was an uncomfortable position for Bakula to work with.


True. I don't think - at least, insofar as he was allowed to develop in ENT - Archer exactly fit in the favourite-uncle,-whom-you-have-a-bit-of-hero-worship/crush-on (depending on age and such). Maybe in that cool-uncle-who-does-cool-things-but-your-mom-doesn't-exactly-like-you-hanging-around way...

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Re: Archer as Captain

Postby Misplaced » Sat Sep 18, 2010 6:33 pm

SB is extremely fit. That's not make-up. :raspberry:

Honestly, Trip isn't my type either... I haven't figured out just how I managed to marry a Trip, though. LOL I thought he was a pretty boy when I first saw the show and I hate pretty boys. Fortunately, they didn't make him like how I'm seeing Bashir as I watch DS9 for the first time (still in the first season -- don't spoil me Niners!). Trip is naive, enthusiastic and totally unaware of his hotness... and while he's very charismatic, he's not a "ladies man". So I could forget that the showrunners picked the hottest guy for the role. His personality won me over.

If Archer had been written more consistently, I probably would adore him as much as I do Trip. I like brooding, dark and conflicted. I love 3rd season Archer the most of all his time in the series.

And SB is hot. Age is no thing for me -- not when I'm merely drooling over someone. Gary Graham is old enough to be my dad, but dang, I still find Soval extremely attractive. (As well as Mr. Graham himself.)
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Re: Archer as Captain

Postby WarpGirl » Sat Sep 18, 2010 6:44 pm

aadarshinah wrote:Agree so much. Conner has a 5-min part on an episode of The Closer in which he was quite unlikable - I mean, that was the part he was playing, you were supposed to hate him, and he was very good in it - and it was almost painful to watch, because he was so unlike Trip....


The Closer was nothing, he was awful on NCIS and Terminator Sarah Conner Chronicals! I do know I've never really liked Scott Bakula, based on his other shows, but usually I can look past it. I do it for Johnny Depp at times.

panyasan wrote:As for Archer, I think the fact that he was captain give him a lot of credit. It seemed like as a Star Trek you have to like the captain. In my humble opinion the writers went overboard with this sentiment and forced a sort of hero rule on Archer. Which was an uncomfortable position for Bakula to work with.


Especially since they would do these swings from episode to episode.

aadarshinah wrote:True. I don't think - at least, insofar as he was allowed to develop in ENT - Archer exactly fit in the favourite-uncle,-whom-you-have-a-bit-of-hero-worship/crush-on (depending on age and such). Maybe in that cool-uncle-who-does-cool-things-but-your-mom-doesn't-exactly-like-you-hanging-around way...


Nope didn't get that vibe. Spoild privliged person vibe for me.

His age doesn't bother me at all. I mean George Clooney is :drool: But he just doesn't light my fire in looks or personality. He's no Bradley Whitford! :twisted:
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Re: Archer as Captain

Postby Silverbullet » Sat Sep 18, 2010 7:20 pm

One thing that drove me up the wall (writers fault) was Archer constantly said "Thats an Order" He sounds as if he thinks his crew is too sstupid to recognize an order when they hear one.

also He treats them like kids at time. In Demons they are all standing on the stairs and Archer says "clap Louder, that's an order. T'Pol gave him a look there) thought that made him look bad as a commander.


I remmeber when Trip was in commmand in Cease Fire I thought he looked and acted as I thought a Captain should. He was confident, in charge, cool. Gave his orders in a quiet voice. The others seemed to have confidence in him and trusted him.

Bakkkula's Archer didn't ring true as a commander.

Then too, the writers had him doing things that Archers subordinates should have done. Travis should have piloted the Insectoid ship in Azati Prime. Archer as commander was too valuable to be going on a suicide mission. Travis was expendable Archer was not.

There was just too much emphasis on a one hero series. all other series were Ensemble and successful in the duration of the run.

I remember in voyager. There was consequences to actions taken. Janeway made a pact with the Devil (borg) becuase of this a species which has up to then had aoided being assimilated by the Borg were. One survived and tried to take revenge on Janeway and the Voyager. He was assimilated in the end but the episode showed that there were cosequences. Paris too,in that Episode of the Planet that was a world with water all around. Janeway busted him and thew him in to the brig for disobeying orders. consequences

Archer never had to pay for any actions. Trip almost did in Congenitor. Some consequences for something. In bound Archer screwed up royally but at the end he tells Trip he isn't going to say anything about Trip shootng him. NO mention that they would not have been in that situation if Archer had not brought the females aboard. NO consequences for Archer he was the Teflon man.
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Re: Archer as Captain

Postby Alelou » Sat Sep 18, 2010 8:02 pm

Silverbullet wrote:Archer never had to pay for any actions. Trip almost did in Congenitor. Some consequences for something. In bound Archer screwed up royally but at the end he tells Trip he isn't going to say anything about Trip shootng him. NO mention that they would not have been in that situation if Archer had not brought the females aboard. NO consequences for Archer he was the Teflon man.


You might be on to something there, but I think it may reflect the world at large. It does seem to me that people get away with shit more than they used to. Or maybe it's just that the people who get caught getting away with shit don't seem to be embarrassed about it anymore. A lot of them truly seem to feel that they are entitled to get away with shit, because they genuinely think everybody else does it, so what's the big deal?

However, in Bound I really do blame the bimbos. I can think of a lot of politicians who could only wish the people they get caught with were green-skinned so they'd have an excuse too.
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Re: Archer as Captain

Postby WarpGirl » Sat Sep 18, 2010 8:22 pm

Alelou wrote:You might be on to something there, but I think it may reflect the world at large. It does seem to me that people get away with shit more than they used to. Or maybe it's just that the people who get caught getting away with shit don't seem to be embarrassed about it anymore. A lot of them truly seem to feel that they are entitled to get away with shit, because they genuinely think everybody else does it, so what's the big deal?

However, in Bound I really do blame the bimbos. I can think of a lot of politicians who could only wish the people they get caught with were green-skinned so they'd have an excuse too.


Thanks to YouTube, e-mail, Twitter, Facebook, cell phones, and Paparazzi... Nobody gets away with much anymore. The thing is nobody cares enough to dole out proper punishment anymore. Because everyone does do it. I'm with SB consequences good or bad rarely happened on ENT and never to the extent that Archer had to grow and change because of them. He was a very static character.

VOY did a great job dealing with consequences, the entire show's premise was the consequences of a decision. Now granted every Trek deals with consequences was a gallon full of gloss. But ENT used an entire tank of gloss with Archer.

And I'm sorry, but you blame the "Bimbos?" For what exactly? Being what they are? Following the Orian way of life? Archer took them on his ship, that was his choice. He's responsible for making it.
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Re: Archer as Captain

Postby Alelou » Sat Sep 18, 2010 8:30 pm

We're told that they can easily mess with guys who don't have Vulcan mating bonds. They were affecting both Archer and Reed, who didn't know what to expect. So yes, I blame the bimbos for causing Archer to lose any good judgment he should have showed in that situation. And, of course, the bimbos knew exactly what they were doing. I believe that makes them the villains of that episode, so in my opinion it's not unreasonable to blame them.
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Re: Archer as Captain

Postby Misplaced » Sat Sep 18, 2010 8:31 pm

I can stomach a little of the "getting away with crap when he shouldn't have" stuff because ENT is the frontier of Trek. They don't have first contact protocols... they are making up stuff as they go. So I expect that there will be times when something happens and they say, "Oops... now we know what not to do next time."

That doesn't explain away everything... but it helps. I also think that in Star Trek, most fans expect it to be lighter and more hopeful. A lot of Trek fans don't find something like BSG to be palatable, because it's so dark. I used to feel that way too. So I think there is pressure on the writers to steer clear of getting too dark and conflicted. So while there should have been more consequenses for actions, I think it was played down.

They were also crippled by the fact that other than the 3rd season, it was basically an anthology show (like TOS, TNG & VOY -- I'm hearing that after the 3rd season DS9 becomes more of an arc show with a few stand alone episodes here and there, but I don't know yet.) So they easily ignore what happens before. Even though we got 2-3 episode arcs in the 4th season, once the arc was finished, the characters for the most part were no longer affected all that much by the events of the arc. Sure, a few things carried over... T'Pol's internal conflict... Trip's conflict (with each other)... but Archer remained unaffected for the most part -- and they basically dropped the rest of the crew (Hoshi, Malcolm & Travis most of all) as being anything but supporting cast, and didn't bother to develop them further.

Basically, tons of potential lost. I read someone's comment in another forum as to why Trek in general stopped working... and they believed it was because while the rest of episodic television evolved to dropping anthology to serial (examples: Lost was huge... just one ginormous arc -- still had crappy moments and I'm still unsure about how I feel about the end... but it always built on itself)... but Trek didn't grow too. It still clung to the TNG-style stuff. ENT was showing hope, but by then people were bored and UPN screwed them over with advertising.

Anyway, that's part of my theory as to why Archer wasn't written well.

But thank goodness other than a couple moments in the series, Trip and T'Pol were. And I do agree that in the few moments that Trip had command of Enterprise he was a fantastic Captain. But I worry that had they chosen to make that the case from the beginning (making Trip captain) that we would have lost out on some great Trip moments since he had more freedom to be himself on the show as the Chief Engineer.
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Re: Archer as Captain

Postby aadarshinah » Sat Sep 18, 2010 8:32 pm

WarpGirl wrote:And I'm sorry, but you blame the "Bimbos?" For what exactly? Being what they are? Following the Orian way of life? Archer took them on his ship, that was his choice. He's responsible for making it.


When the choice was offered to him, he was already exposed to (and suffering from the consiquences of) the pheremones. He couldn't have made a rational choice if he had tried. The Orions were being Orions, the Enterprise crew was responding naturally to the pheremones, and, all in all, everyone was behaving as they ought in the situation, and it was only luck that TnT had their bond and the day was saved at all. So, if I'm going to blame anyone, I'll blame the Orions who wanted to steal the ship in the first place, 'cause stealing is bad, whatever your culture.

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Re: Archer as Captain

Postby Misplaced » Sat Sep 18, 2010 8:35 pm

I blame the bimbos too in Bound. And I honestly believe that Archer was joking with Trip about shooting him. That wasn't a real threat for a formal reprimand. (I had to watch this episode again to make sure I am capturing the dynamics of TnT right for "Unexpected Too").
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Re: Archer as Captain

Postby Alelou » Sat Sep 18, 2010 8:39 pm

Misplaced wrote:But I worry that had they chosen to make that the case from the beginning (making Trip captain) that we would have lost out on some great Trip moments since he had more freedom to be himself on the show as the Chief Engineer.


Absolutely. Captains are never lucky in love on Star Trek; there would have been no point at all in watching and waiting for TnT. also, we might just be debating just how poor or inconsistent the characterization of Captain Tucker was right now.
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Re: Archer as Captain

Postby WarpGirl » Sat Sep 18, 2010 8:42 pm

OK true, the pharamones were an issue. But the Orians were not an unknown race. Boomers have known about them for years. Vulcans knew about them and SF had access to the Vulcan database. This was not a blind first contact, or it should not have been. And yes sealing is bad, however, the issue isn't whether the Orians are good or bad. It's about the way Archer handled the situation.
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