Archer as Captain

[honeybee]

BTW: I googled for Lewis and Clark - interesting part of American history. The things you learn at this board.

It's so interesting, isn't it? Sacajawea is considered such a hero that she appeared on a US Dollar coin a few years back. Sadly, Americans just won't embrace dollar coins over bills - so I don't even know if it is still being minted. She was only around sixteen and was either pregnant or carrying a baby on her back during the journey. She was so respected, she was allowed an official vote as a member of the corp. So was Clark's slave, York. They are considered the first woman and first African American man to have voted in an American election of any kind.

Anyway, I agree that the propping of Archer was a writing mistake. It's writing 101 - show the viewer/reader and let them decide. From various interviews and commentaries - I've gotten the impression that the writers were under pressure from UPN to make Archer "more heroic" early on - which flew in the face of the concept that he would learn to be heroic. I like the concept that he wasn't perfect and he was in over his head - but like others, I would have liked to see more consequences for his mistakes and more dependence on his people.

One of my favorite Archer episodes is Strategem. He's engaging in some clever spycraft, he's depending on the expertise of his crew, making a tough ethical decision or two and he's furthering his cause without bloodshed. There's almost no propping in that episode. I think if he had been like he was in that episode from the beginning, it would have served the show well.

[Brandyjane]

I discovered Scott Bakula when I started watching Quantum Leap reruns on SciFi just a few months before Ent first aired. I was so excited to start watching a new Trek from the beginning - I'd never done that before - and the fact that Bakula was going to play the captain was awesome! Unfortunately, I was pretty disappointed by Bakula's Archer. In fact, if it weren't for Trip being such an amazing character, I probably would have given up on the show early on.

I never have been able to figure out exactly what it is, but Archer is just off. Sometimes I think it's the acting, sometimes it might be the directing, and a whole lot of the time it is the writing. From the very beginning, I didn't like the way he strutted into Starfleet Medical in "Broken Bow." I remember thinking, "Who does this arrogant jerk think he is?" Other times he was great! (I'm trying to remember specific times I liked him - and I know there were plenty - but right now I'm drawing a blank.) Season three made him much more interesting. I found Bakula's acting as Dark Archer more believable than I found Goofy Archer or Indignant Self-righteous Archer in the first two seasons.

One thing I did like about him was his dedication to his people. I know there are times when he treated them poorly ("Cogenitor!") , but I always got the impression that he would storm the gates of Hell for the people he cared about.

[Misplaced]

I think season three was fantastic for the development with Archer. I know he was Dark but there was a depth and breadth to him that was lacking in the first two seasons. Some of it was lost in the fourth season, though. I think the problem was that the writers wanted to make him a "Kirk" for lack of a better term... but neither SB nor the way they wrote Archer accomplished that.

I think that's the beauty of fanfiction. There is an opportunity to produce more consistency in the character.

Also, I find it fascinating being able to see through fiction how writer's view each particular character. Sometimes, even in the best fics, I feel like the writer's interpretation doesn't jive with my own. That's especially true of Archer. Probably because he was kind of all over the board in the series, so people work from what stood out most to them personally -- whether it was what they liked best or liked least.

[WarpGirl]

I'm just confused as to why this isn't in the non-ship thread?

The thread in question was about non TnT ships, and since the discussion veered into one about Archer, I opened a new thread and moved the relevant posts. This was done so those who want to discuss non TnT ships can continue without having to wade through posts about Archer.

I got that, but usually it would be posted in the section of the board for not talking about TnT...

[aadarshinah]

They wanted a Kirk, but, to push the metaphor a little, Kirk was at his best with a Spock - someone to bounce ideas off of, serve as general foil, and to be a genius with. The writers, however, seemed to have forgotten that little bit... But maybe again they were just going for that "burdens of command" thing.

[honeybee]

I got that, but usually it would be posted in the section of the board for not talking about TnT...

'

Thank you so much. Alas, my mistake will have to stand since I don't know how to move a whole thread. But I'll ask the tech guys. We'll see if everything gets all straightened out. You're dedication to perfectly, perfect forum organization is much appreciated.

[WarpGirl]

Why you're welcome. Glad to help.

[Silverbullet]

I liked the ARcher in Fusion, Damage, Chosen Realm. Especially damage. He made a critical decision but still kept in mind that he had to leave the Aliens in the best possible condition that he could.

Re Lewis and Clark (aside) the oldest member of the corps of discovery lived to 99 years old. He saw the invtion of the railroad, Telegraph, Photography, the cartrige Bulllet, the Relvover, the Repeating rifle, The Gatling gun, the Transcontinental Railroad, the transatlantic cable. He jsut missed the Telephone by 14 years. So many advances in one mans lifetime. Imagine what advances that say, Trip might see if he lives another 99 years.

[Aquarius]

Wow, SB. Thinking of it that way really puts a perspective on it, doesn't it??? It makes things seem so much less distant.

One of my few gripes about the Archer character is I really wish they'd gotten the guy laid more. I know TPTB kind of wanted him to be the anti-Kirk that way...but come on! A dude's got needs, right???

[Alelou]

Maybe that was his whole problem.

Just kidding.

I did feel bad for him on Risa, though. I think he should have been able to have some rolling good fun in the hay with spy bimbo before she knocked him flat, even if would have made him look a little slutty. Instead, the dogs had all the fun.

[Aquarius]

I guess "slutty" is in the eye of the beholder. He seemed to actually like her. I don't think it would've been wrong, and if it wasn't happening all the time I don't think it would make him promiscuous. It's gotta be lonely when it's just you and your dog.

[honeybee]

That's one of the things I enjoyed about writing the E2 Universe - I got to "create" Archer's wife and have him have a personal life.

I still think that in RL - the most obvious thing would be to have a married captain with his wife aboard, but in some capacity where she did not report directly to him on a daily basis.

I also think we were sort of short changed that he never really reacted to TnT's relationship onscreen. Even if he had no feelings for her, it would still cause a reaction in anyone of the two people you are most close to and most depend on in your work, paired off as a romantic couple. I also think that one of the impetus's of the TnT relationship is that they were both close to Archer at various times, and he completely withdrew from them both in The Expanse. Turning to each other was a natural choice, especially given the latent attraction.

[Alelou]

I guess "slutty" is in the eye of the beholder. He seemed to actually like her. I don't think it would've been wrong, and if it wasn't happening all the time I don't think it would make him promiscuous. It's gotta be lonely when it's just you and your dog.

Well, maybe not so much a slut as a sucker? Maybe he'd be fine with it, especially since we'll assume he wouldn't give anything important away, but I think he'd probably feel used.

Or would he? (Guys?)

Bond wouldn't have thought twice about it, I suppose.

[Aquarius]

Oh, I'd buy that he'd feel used once he found out she was a spy. For sure.

But--I'm looking at this from the perspective of his intentions going into it, before he found that out. Nice lady. Lot in common. "Must Love Dogs." That kind of thing. If he wants to get some of that, who's to say it's wrong?

[honeybee]

We've established that Archer was inconsistently written - but he really doesn't seem like a promiscuous guy, a la Kirk or Bond. He seems like a relationship guy.

He flirted with the woman (and kissed) in Civilization, but that wasn't a relationship. He flirted with the spy chick, and admittedly seemed to be considering a vacation fling like the one Hoshi had. There was edited out chick, who according to the novelization of the episode was the woman whose mother bred Porthos. And then, there was Erika.

And clearly, since none of them lasted, he's not a very good relationship guy.