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Police have ranks. So does NASA. And a few other things, I'm sure, that aren't exactly military... But that's the duck question again.

Thank you! Hey Firemen have ranks and uniforms, a chain of command, and they issue orders. OK are they Military????

You are tlaking abut Civilian services.

Starfleet command is different. It is not civilian. You don't give a police Officer or a fireman a Bad Conduct discharge you fire them. Bad conduct discharges are only handed out by the Military. Hoshi was given a Bad conduct discharge from Starfleet command. which ran Starfleet Acadmy. If Starfleet command is military then a Starfleet Starship would be too and that is what Enterprise was: a Starfleet Starship.

What do you find so objectionable to Enterprise being a military ship sent on a scientific and diplomatic mission. It has been done in the past and in TOS that was what Entrprise was. a Military Starship out on a Scientific and Diplomatic mission.

*sigh*

people, can we drop the military/non-military discussion? I initially started the thread in the hope that people would add info on the less used crewmembers, just as Rigil Kent has done. That would give the fanfic writers something to work with, enabling us to use established characters instead of having to invent OC's.

I suppose we can agree to disagree on the millitary (non-)status of the boat.

Agreed. So, listing, ('cause I enjoy it), things we know:

There are ranks. The ones used on Enterprise are, in order:

Commissioned:
Captain
Commander
Lt. Commander
Leiutenant
Ensign

Non-commissioned:
Crewman 1st class
Crewman 2nd class
Crewman 3rd class

Regardless of whether or not Starfleet is, as of ENT, a military outfit, these ranks exist and are followed. There are, from low to high, Commodores, Rear Admirals, Admirals, and Fleet Admirals that the captain reports to and recieves orders from, but, again, whether or not they are military is of no consiquence to the fact that that is what it is.

There is a chain of command in place. This could be veiwed militarily, as some chose to given the ranks, or not. Though we didn't call it that, at my old job at AT&T we had a chain of command (manager, assitant manager, then sales rep in order of senority) that fuctioned the same. But that, again, is moot, because, regardless, there is a CoC. It is, as best we can tell:

Admiral Forrest (seasons 1-4.7) / Admiral Gardner (4.7+)
Captain Jonathan Archer
(Sub)Commander T'Pol
Commander Charles "Trip" Tucker III (seasons 1-4.14 & 4.17+) / Lt. Commander Kelby (4.15/16)
Lt. Malcom Reed
? Ensign Hoshi Sato/Travis Mayweather (guessing on the order)
? Engisn Travis Mayweather/Hoshi Sato (still guessing)
? Lt. Foster (which is only a guess, as he appears to be Reed's 2nd and would be the next logical person in line)

From what I can scrape together, it's generally assumed Lt. Hess is Trip's second and was probably Kelbys. Lt. Foster appears to be Reed's second. Anyones guess on who T'Pol's was.... And anyone's guess on the CoC inside each department. But that's all that appears certain. We can fill in the details from here. So, details anyone?

They didn't have Lieutenant Commanders on ENT. Probably because TPTB never got around to making the hollow pip needed for creating the proper rank insignia (don't let the ones we use on the board fool you). For the same reason there aren't any Lieutenants junior grade either.

I really think they should have had those ranks. Reed should have been a LT CMDR and and Sato and Mayweather LT JGs, or at any rate promoted to those ranks after two years or so. Sato should probably have been a LT from the start.

Kelby was a full Commander, even if he got to take the second seat when Trip came back aboard.

hmmm... I was sure Kelby was Lt. Cmdr. Doesn't Trip call him that at one point?

aadarshinah wrote:hmmm... I was sure Kelby was Lt. Cmdr. Doesn't Trip call him that at one point?

No, Kelby was a Commander. I remember reading somewhere that the rank of Lt. Cmdr. was only introduced after the formation of the Coalition of Planets and Hoshi was actually the first one ever to hold that rank. But I can't for my life remember, where I read it and how credible the source was

KTR is right. No Lt commander or Lt J.G.

An ensign is promted to J.G. automatically after six months. To J.G. after a year (if no tscrew ups) Lt takes more time. After that it is earned and can take some time to become a Lt commander.

I had always wondered why no FO was assigned to Enterprise from the beginning.

In engineering, I believed that Kerlby being romoted to Full Commander had to be confirmed by Starfleet Command and until then it was only a temporary rank. Don't belive that there could be two full commanders in Engineering. Kelby could fall back to Lt commadner or his permanent rak of Lt. but the sole Commander should have ben Trip when he returned.

I bellieved that Hoshi commanded the Communicatins section: Communications, encryption section and a small analyst section, the Computer of the ship. That would be a fairly large section so she would need to be at least a Lt commander. Travis would head the elmsmen, four shifts three on duty and one on break, the navigation section and mapping section. That too would be a section probably 10 people so he should be at lest a Lt.

I never though tthat communications would come under the Science section but be a section of its own.

Your ranking chart should be an Orgnaizational chart too. Science, Commuicatons, Navigation, Engineering, command, Medical.


SB

Okay? So there's what? 88 people on Enterprise? So maybe if we figure out how big the sections are, we can guess at the number of officers and what the CoC might be and whatnot.

So, we have 88. Take out Archer, who's the top of this pyramid, we get 87.
Take out Phlox and Cutler for Medical and you get 85. That's all the medical I can think of, but it gives us a start.

So we have 85 people and how many more departments? Tactical, Engineering, Science, Comms, Nav?
Take out the heads for each - Reed, Trip, T'Pol, Hoshi, and, presumably, Mayweather, and you get 80.
Now it's a safe bet comms and nav are nowhere near as big as the other three, especially if an Ensign's in charge, so I'm going to guess that each is at the tip of their own little foodchain and have no more than 5 people under them - 3 shifts, 2 people for each. That gives me a guestimated total of 70 for the other three departments.
So, do we divide 70 by three? Give us about 23 people per department? And what about all the stuff like quartermaster and cook and whatnot? Where do they fall? Are they their own department?

Which makes things tricky. So I say we declare Nav and Comms and cooks to all belong to one big ops department, directly under the XO. So we have Hoshi + 5 for Comms, Mayweather + 5 for Nav, and the Cook and Quartermaster and Steward and, oh, probably a janitor/laundry attendant for and Ops of 16 reporting directly to the XO.

Now the XO is also the SciO, and since she's a Cmdr and it's a big ship, it's gotta be a big department. Almost as big, if not bigger, than Eng, which is also headed by a Cmdr. Following that logic, Tatical has to be a middling department. Reed + 2 other Lts + 3 Ensigns (to cover 3 shifts with 2 each; it can be Reed + 1 Lt + 4 Ensigns or Reed + 5 Ensigns or whatnot, so long as it adds to 6. That gives us 1 on bridge and 1 in the armoury each shift.) But armoury is big, so we need at least, say, 3 people there per shift, for a total of 12 people in the department (1 on bridge, 3 in armoury).

So 88 - captain - medical - ops = 69 - tactical = 57 crewmen to deal with.

So let's take on Engineering. 1 head per shift (Trip + 2 Lts?), plus, say, 2 Ensigns per shift and 3 other crewmen (for a total of six people in Engineering at a time, with more in emergencies taken from other shifts or recruited from other departments - say science, which might have cross training, or tatical) we get an engineering team of 18 in total, leaving us with 39 for science. Now, that sounds a bit excessive, as 39 people out of 88 even on a vessel of exploration is 44% of the crew. So I'm going to make it a total of 8 people in Engineering a shift (Trip or an Lt + 2/3 Ensigns and 4/5 crewmen) for a total of 24 in Engineering, which leaves 33 for science. Which sounds good to me.

So, if science has three shifts two, you get 11 per shift, which probably would add up to T'Pol or an Lt. heading the department each shift, plus maybe 3 other lts in the department, which gives us maybe 6/9 ensigns and 18/21 crewmen in the department.

Which, breaking down, gives us:
Ops: Hoshi + 5 crewmen + Travis + 5 crewmen + 4 probably crewmen = 16
Tactical: Reed + 2 Lts + 3 ensigns + 6 crewmen = 12
Engineering: Trip + 2Lts + 6 ensigns + 15 crewmen = 24
Science: T'Pol + 5Lts + 6 ensigns + 21 crewmen = 33
Medical: Phlox + Cutler = 2
= 1 captain, 2 commanders, 1 dr, 10 lts, 17 ensigns, and 57 crewmen = 88

which, I think the whole point of this all is, what's the Chain of Command after the inital 6? It would probably go to an Lt, but from which department? we assume tatical, but why not science or engineering? Would it be by senority or task or would it follow the inital pattern - sci officer, engineer, tatical, etc...? Ideas?

Too... Much... MATH... I am officially lost, I wish you success in your endevors happy people.

It was mentioned in Strange New Worlds that Cutler is an entomologist.
Grrr

*hangs head dejectedly*

Well, even if Phlox doesn't have a dedicated nurse, the figures still hold, more or less. My whole point of doing it was to figure out how many officers might realistically be aboard a ship of Enterprise's size. I got thirty. 1/3 of the crew, which didn't seem all that outragously terrible a percentage. And if we know for sure who 7 of them are and that 1 of them can't take command (Phlox), we can kinda figure out the Chain of Command...

And a lot of other things. For instance, if 1/3 of the crew are officers and 1/3 of the crew is female, then we can assume that 1/3 of the officers are female... which you could use, I dunno, in a fic for some reason. I'm too tired to think of a decent one. Give me a while on that one.

But mostly I had a point and forgot it before I finished my calculations. Always had a tendancy to overanlyse things...

Repeat like a chant... It's fiction...It's fiction... It's fiction... But honestly that was a grat chart. Even if the numbers did make my head spin. BRAVO!

If Hoshi is ops, why is her stripe green?

(Though I agree, it OUGHT to be ops... especially since she sure seems to butt heads a lot with her direct supervisor at the beginning.)