T'Pol's Father

[aadarshinah]

It's not a concious thing, WG, but sometimes it does happen. In a sense, we imprint upon our parents - not to the extent that ducks, for instance, do, but there are things which remind us of our parents, or of our childhood homes, which make us feel safe, secure, and that the other person can be trusted, even when there's no good reason for it. We come to associate our parents with the positive feelings and, therefore, things that we associate with our parents can also elicit these feelings. A guy may have traits that, subconciously, remind you of your father, and, depending on your relationship with your father, this may allow you to feel more comfortable around that guy and see him as a potental father-figure to future children more easily than someone who does not have these traits...

It's kinda embaressing to admit, but the guy I'm going to be driving with? I've barely known him for a month. I know relatively little about him now and knew less at the time, but I sort of trusted him from the start. No idea why. About a week or so after we'd met, we were both sitting in the back of a truck, "observing" the driver, and he practically had to hold on to me to keep me from bouncing out of the seat. I realized then he kinda smelled like my grandfather - same aftershave or something. Not saying that's the driving force in our friendship, but I guess it helps, because I was closer to him than any of the other guys in the class and, well, he managed to talk me into driving teams with him across Canada.

[WarpGirl]

I don't deny it happens. I'm sorry I wasn't clear. I am fully aware of the power of the unconscious mind, even though I will never believe that it directly controls human behavior. My point was this, that yes although it is true that people may form unconscious attatchments to others based on traits of their parents or other loved ones, its not a definite. Not ALL people will do this or experience it. Certainly not ALL women will choose a man because of some unconscious connection to their fathers. Not ALL men will choose to be with a woman because of an unconscious connection to their mothers.

If people are not aware of their unconscious, Who can give them imperical proof that their reaction to something or someone, is driven by the subconscious mind? Nobody can do that. They can hypothesize that the reaction is unconscious in an emotional connection. But nobody can definatively prove that Madam X fell in love with Mr. Y because Mr. Y is like Madam X's father.

Is it possible T'Pol fell for Trip because he's like her father? Sure. But its not necessary. Not ALL women fall in love with men like their fathers THANK GOD!

[Rigil Kent]

Heh. Well, I totally ripped that motif off in my Endeavour stuff, with Trip's mom being the more reserved and cool parent much to the great amusement of his brother. It's been a while, but I think I also implied that T'Pol did the same, with her dad being the more emotive parent and even being a warp engineer. Again, I could be mistaken...

[Asso]

It's interesting to point out that, whereas women - consciously or unconsciously - search frequently in their possible mates for something which reminds them their father, men - equally consciously or unconsciously - search not for women who have inside some trait of their mother, but - and that's a real tragedy - for a MOM, sic et simpliciter.
For the record, I am sufficiently prone to believe that T'Pol could find in Trip the warmth that probably her father had been able to give her; but I don't think Trip was attracted to T'Pol because of something in her which reminded him his mother; and even less because he was in search for a succedaneum of a mother, in per se.

[Alelou]

Oh, I imagine it works both ways. If nothing else, I would guess that Trip's mother is 1) brilliant, 2) funny, and 3) a bit emotionally reserved. But he could just as well be subconsciously relating to traits from his father, or another significant caregiver from his youth.

This whole theory is boiled down in Harville Hendrix's work in Imago Relationship Therapy, WarpGirl, if you're interested. Our church had a session on it which was startlingly fast at pinpointing all the issues my husband and I were having, so I looked into it a great deal more, and I still think it makes perfect sense (and also gives you a useful framework for working out those inevitable issues).

Does it happen to everybody? Maybe not. I'm sure if someone were incredibly self-aware -- had already had years of therapy, perhaps -- they could consciously work to avoid some stuff. But genuinely experiencing that sensation of falling in love is generally not a conscious process in a culture that values free choice rather than, say, arranged marriages. God knows it explains why some people seem to get into a rut of picking out the same kind of disastrous partner over and over, even though they swear "never again!"

Not to say there aren't some women out there who will notice a guy has money and power and that will be enough for them to set their caps for him. But are women like that truly feeling in love, or just overcome with acquisitiveness or that mating instinct to acquire a good nest for the brood?

[WarpGirl]

If we knew anything about T'Pol's dad, maybe we could say for sure. My only objection is in the idea that all people are drawn to traits their parents have when they meet their "soulmates." Do a great number of people seem to do so? YES! But its not true for everyone, and does not have to be true for TnT.

Alelou I understand the power of the unconscious mind. I don't deny it exists at all. For example... I love brick or stone facade houses. And for the life of me I couldn't understand why. Because I found myself being drawn to these truly hideous brick houses whereas the prettier houses with siding weren't as appealing. So after doing a lot of "soul searching" I realized that I felt the brick or stone facade houses were safer. Brick and stone don't catch fire. Now Rationally I knew that these houses have fires just like houses made out of other materials. But they still feel safe to me. I admit I can't control that feeling.

I look at it like this... I might not be aware of the influence of my unconscious mind. And I might not be able to control having a feeling. Just like I can't control the fact that a 2 1/2 inch needle being jabbed into a muscle hurts... But I'll be hanged if I can't control whether I scream 95% of the time. I'm in control of myself and my choices. And I truly believe other people are too, whether they choose to be in control of themselves is another matter.

[Alelou]

I just want to know which one of your parents really, really loves to argue.

LOL.

[WarpGirl]

Neither. It's my Grammy actually.

[Linda]

Hmm, I always thought of T'Pol's father as being Vulcan, though I enjoyed Honeybee's story with him as a Romulan. I guess I thought of Vulcans and Romulans as having the same emotional base, but handling emotions differently culturally. But I do see Vulcans and Romulans as being separate races, even before the Romulans left Vulcan. I think of the brow ridges being a racial trait which caused prejudice on Vulcan, like skin color has done on earth. And I think that touch and non-touch telepathy was much less common among the Romulan racial group. I see Romulans as having a chip on their shoulder, feeling Vulcans have wronged them in some way and wish to strike back. They were forced off the home world and would love to come back to it as conquerers. Although I base this view on what I see in canon, I am sure there are a wide variety of other views on Vulcan-Romulan relations.

[WarpGirl]

Pretty much how I see it myself. Especially the Romulans being a separate race. But what do you think T'Pol's father was like as a man Linda?

[Asso]

Like saying that T'Mir didn't waste her time?

[honeybee]

Thanks for the shout-out Linda.

In Family Secrets, I didn't undo T'Pol's Vulcanness at all in Chapter 2, Phlox looks at her genetics and says that she's as Vulcan as she ever was since the Romulans are Vulcans. It's the meditation and adherence to Surak that makes someone Vulcan.

For those who haven't read the story, which isn't for everyone one, I portrayed it like her father liked being Vulcan, loved T'Les and T'Pol and might very well have stayed if not called to greater things. He's a very high-ranking and powerful Romulan in the story - and he loves her, just in his snooty Romulan way.

There seemed to be two ways of doing the story. Making T'Pol's father imprisoned or have amnesia or something, which didn't feel very dramatic to me and very soap operaish. But the fact that he deliberately went home and had been keeping tabs on her, knew about her and Trip and wanted to protect her from the coming war - that worked for me. But readers, even ones who liked the story, were really alarmed that her father was such a bastard. They wanted him to be nice.

That was one of the reasons I gave her a "nice" brother. By the end of the story, she does have new family - even though he's a Romulan and very different. They have gotten tight.

And while never addressed in the story (the sequel might) - everyone wanted to know why T'Les didn't know. My take was that she did - thus the Syrannite stuff and her insistence that T'Pol settle down with a nice Vulcan and not fall for an offworlder.

[WarpGirl]

Well I think the theory of different races can be valid. I mean we humans classify out selves into races, even if it is rather stupid, because a human is a human whether white, black, Asian, and so on... Not only do we do that but tell a Japanese person they're "the same" as a Chinese person and sometimes the reaction won't be good. Its like that with most separate cultures from any other "race." Technically, Arabs and Isrealies are "the same" too.

So maybe its a matter of who Vulcans and Romulans believe they are, and notwhat they actually are. That said ST classifys them both as Vulcannoid... Kind of like they classify Klingons as humanoid. Yet Klingons and humans are not "the same."

[Alelou]

So fuschia blood qualifies them as humanoid?

Hmm.

[WarpGirl]

Hey I didn't make the rules. Take that one up with TPTB... But I'll prove it. http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Klingon

Its actually pretty traditional to make 99% of aliens in Trek humanoid, there are exceptions... Xindi insectisoids, Aquatics, Tholians, Trill symbiotes... but not that many. Basically if it has two arms, two legs, and walks upright, its humanoid. But everyone knows that.