Questions about the Cogentior

[Hoshissis]

But with the Orion women and Rajiin they had to be brought on board in order for them to affect Archer. He was not affected when he bfought them on board but later. He had no excuse for either action. He was set up both times and he fell into the trap both times because he was not thinking as he should have. He was the CAPTAIN. Rajiin he may have had an excuse. She was a Slave trying to escape a cruel slave owner.

But the Orion women, no excuse. He knew he should not accept three females as a gift. He also knew that the Orions could not be trusted. Archer was very gullible.

Ever consider what might have happened if Trip and T'Pol not been successful in disloging the cable, shutting down the Orions Wrp drives and weapons? Instead the Orion ship towing the helpless Enterprise to the waiting Orion Mauraders? The Mauraders were the ones who transported nine off the Enterprise and were going to sell them as slaves. They would have 80 crewmembers to enslave and a nice Starship all their own to use as a lure to trap other ships they could then board, capture the crew and enslve them. All because of Archer.

Again T'Pol went along with both instances. But she jumped on Trip because he may have jeopadized Archer getting some Vissan Technology.

From what I can remember on both occasions he was off Enterprise when he was affected by both Raijin and the Orion woman. With Raijin, she sort of did a jedi mind trick on him, when he first saw her on the planet in the slave market. he seemed to be mesmerized when the owner came up and offered her for sale. It was a bit after that she tried to run away and Archer saved her and took her to the ship.
Again with the orions, it was onboard their ship when they did that dance. Both Reed and Archer seemed to be affected by them, which was before he brought them onboard.

[crystalswolf]

SB, as Hoshississ says, they did have control of Archer before ever boarding the ship. In Rajiin's case, Phlox said it was something weird going on with her eyes. In the marketplace they made sure to focus on the fact that she locked eyes with Archer and this was before she ever stepped foot on Ent. As for the Orions, it was the reason why Harrad-Sar would not start discussions until AFTER they danced. Dancing moves the air around and since it's their pheromones that control, this made perfect sense to me.

Personally, I think it was poor writing on their part, either a writer not very happy with the Trip character or someone's misguided attempt at added impact to the story without truly thinking about what it meant for the other characters. But that doesn't matter. It's canon and (because we have no alternative) we each have to find a way to make the story fit for us. It's definitely one of those fill in the gap moments.

The way I make it fit in my mind is with the do as I say and not as I do SB mentioned earlier. I figure how many leaders (and sadly parents) have ended up that type of relationship? It's when the senior (officer, adult, etc.) knows the consequences of the action, does it anyway and is willing to deal with whatever comes of it, but is not willing to deal with the consequences of someone else's actions for whatever reason.

[Silverbullet]

Rajiina eyes may have got to Archer but not in the slave market. She didn't look into his eyes. It was whe she went into his wuarters got near him that her eyes did their work. She then did whatever it was that she did to get his bio information off him. she obviously needed body contact to memerize him She had to be touching him. Same with the others. Hoshi and the crewman touching. when Rajiin came into T'Pol's quarters she had to be touching T'Pol and that is when T'Pol stopped sitting like a bump on a Log and resisted Rajiin.

Orion women. they had to be on board the ship for a few days before their Phernones (sp) took hold. The men slowly became entrapped by those. Archer wan't controlled until he went in to the qurters occupied by the leader of the women and obviously got his Ashes hauled. Until then he rwas rational and in command. Had he not accepted the women as gifts everything would have been allright. Don't buy that Archer was under any spell until body contact was made.

[crystalswolf]

Rajiina eyes may have got to Archer but not in the slave market. She didn't look into his eyes. It was whe she went into his wuarters got near him that her eyes did their work...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaUX1umf ... re=related

Orion women. they had to be on board the ship for a few days before their Phernones (sp) took hold. The men slowly became entrapped by those. Archer wan't controlled until he went in to the qurters occupied by the leader of the women and obviously got his Ashes hauled. Until then he rwas rational and in command. Had he not accepted the women as gifts everything would have been allright. Don't buy that Archer was under any spell until body contact was made.

This can be one of those situations where each person can interpret it differently. Phlox said their pheromones had an accumulative effect. How much influence they have over someone the moment the person inhales their pheromones, I don't think, was ever stated. So with this I would say we are all right.

Personally, because of the nature of pheromones and response to them, I would say that they have an immediate effect and the response to them only increase from there.

[Silverbullet]

Archer seemed to be al right when T'Pol said the women has caused some men to be late for thier shifts. He said he would speak to the leader of the women. Later when they were in detention he started seeminly alright but the leader almost got him to open the door until T'Pol said "Captain" then he shook off the effects. When they went in to the hall T'Pol said he ws affectedd but he said he was alright.

Phlox managed to keep himself relatively free by using a stimulate frequently.

Trip, of course, was unaffected because off his bond with T'Pol

[crystalswolf]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKaEcO5zcVQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQ7xLubaqCM

During their dance, they showed that Archer couldn't keep his eyes off of them. Even when they stopped their dance, he followed them with his eyes which is kind of uncharacteristic of him. When interested in something, Archer may show interest but usually does not ignore everything else in the process.

When Archer talks to T'Pol about Harrad-Sar's suggestion after returning from the Orion ship, at the very end of the conversation T'Pol looks as though she's confused by his behavior. When T'Pol tells him about the disturbances caused by the women, he doesn't look fine, he actually looks distracted and even agrees that the women were becoming disruptive. Then came the scene where he almost opened the door for them.

In these scenes you can see the accumulative effect they had on him. For his mind, at first it catches his attention, then distracts him, until finally full blown loss of will.

If I remember correctly (someone please confirm if you can) but human response to human pheromones tend to be more on a subconscious level. The body reacts without the full knowledge of the conscious mind. If this is so, then the more powerful pheromones of Orion women could effect him but he would still think he was perfectly okay, just very attracted to them.

[Silverbullet]

Crystalwolf. I agree that the Episode has to be taken as broadcast that is set in stone.

What we are doing here (I believe) is trying to write a corrective to that. Just like so many write a "Fix it" to the Abomination.

You are also right that each individual comes away with a different interpretation of the episode. Can't be helped each vision is colored by the persons experience.

I hope that you will agree that the Episode had holes in it large enough to drive a fleet of trucks through. That unfortunately is an effect of time constriants caused by Commericals.

What I wish would be that we could have the writer of the Episode appear on the board to defend his writing.

SB

[crystalswolf]

We agree completely that Archer's motives at the end and Trip's reaction to the Cogenitor's death are wide open for interpretation. My comment wasn't actually about the focus of the discussion but adding my personal feelings about the ep. I wish the ep ended where Archer had become peripheral in the conversation when he tells Trip about the Cogenitor's death and they focused on Trip's reaction, but if wishes were dollars...

[Silverbullet]

Then Crystalwolf. we are in agreement that what happenend at the end is anybody's guess.

My story focused on Trip' s motivation his (and mine) concern for rights of all beings. It is said that all writing is partialy autobiographical. I obviosly put in my core feelings into my story by using Blacks and women as examples of groups that had been treated as theCogenitor was being treated in the Episode and with jut as little reason for the treatment. In actuality, both Blacks and females were productive. Blacks for manual Labor and women for maintence of the feamily. The Cogenitor was not allowed to be a productive part of his/hers society.

I deliberately left out Trip's concern over the death of the Cpgenitor by implying that there was guilt enough to go around

SB