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Well T'Pol says it was a divorce even though it was not consumated. Maybe Vulcan law is different.

Alelou wrote:It all can make sense if you believe this was being created as a political alliance, not a real marriage. I just wish I believed the writers had actually thought ahead that far themselves.

Actually you just made my point. Rigil doesn't like Koss because he forced the marriage... He seems to think Koss was going to force a lot of other things too. But given what we saw that doesn't make sense to me, because none of his actions point to a "real marriage" so the only thing I can come up with was the set up was made by several parties for political reasons, and Koss hoped maybe it would stick. When it didn't he let T'Pol go no hard feelings. I say no hard feelings because they were both very cordial to each other. I don't think T'Pol felt anything for Koss, like or loathing.

As for Vulcan attitudes about humans we only saw Vulcans who worked for the VHC (even the doctors in Stigma)... Well T'Les might have not had a government teaching position but I doubt it... In any case we have no idea how an average Vulcan citizen felt about humans. The V'tosh Ka'tur don't count. Koss' father was prominent but I doubt he ever met a human before Trip, so his one line about him being T'Pol's "human friend" doesn't prove to me he held the same attitude of the VHC.

Asso wrote:How many things were shown by a guy who appeared on screen just, if I am not mistaken, two times; and in both the circumstances only in order to enlighten T'Pol's inner turmoil.
I don't understand (and maybe I am repetitive): but why must we descant about Koss? He was nothing else than a mere artifice.

I feel the same. We can try now in 2010 to work out some good motivations for him, but I do believe that back when Koss was actually being written, the peeps writing spent only about 1% of the concentrated mental effort WarpGirl and Rigil are putting into the issue. I don't believe Koss' motivations were ever worked out in detail and that is why the character makes no sense.

No reason we can't hash it out now of course. But I do agree with Asso. When Koss appeared, he was a "mere artifice." Hell the writers didn't even develop believable motives for the crew of the ship, let alone their planetary friends and relatives.

Why hash it out? Hmm... In the words of James T. Kirk... Because it's there! I don't know about anyone else but I like to come up with "what if's", plausible "Why's", and "Maybe's" based on what we saw and didn't see. It's playtime, it's fun. And isn't it part of the reason these boards exist to begin with? Because if it isn't than why spend so much time on this stuff?

WarpGirl wrote:Why hash it out? Hmm... In the words of James T. Kirk... Because it's there!

indeed. it *is* there.

WarpGirl wrote:Why hash it out? Hmm... In the words of James T. Kirk... Because it's there! I don't know about anyone else but I like to come up with "what if's", plausible "Why's", and "Maybe's" based on what we saw and didn't see. It's playtime, it's fun. And isn't it part of the reason these boards exist to begin with? Because if it isn't than why spend so much time on this stuff?

I agree. It's fun to discuss scenario's and try to make a character more 3-D, if that character interested you.

WarpGirl wrote:Well T'Pol says it was a divorce even though it was not consumated. Maybe Vulcan law is different.

Really? She used the word divorce? In which episode?

UG!!! Which episode? Daedalus I think????? Someone find that transcript site again. I know it did say divorce not anulment.

WarpGirl wrote:Rigil doesn't like Koss because he forced the marriage...

No, Rigil doesn't like Koss because he was central to a poorly conceived, poorly written subplot clearly intended by the showrunners to forestall writing an actual Human/Vulcan relationship with Trip/T'Pol. More than anything else, Rigil (who is inexplicably speaking of himself in the 3rd Person - he blames it on being very tired from work) loathes the standard issue "will they, won't they" dross that makes up something like 95% of television male-female relationships and, after all the steps taken to get to the point TnT had reached at the end of season 3, the marriage plot felt like a contrived mess that turned them both into abject morons. Rigil also dislikes Trip's transfer to Columbia and T'Pol's sudden "she got religion and now has no time to even be around Trip" elements of season 4 for much the same reason, and this is why Rigil ultimately prefers season 3 over season 4.

Rigil (who is still speaking in 3rd Person) tends to agree with eKayak that we've put more discussion and thought into the entire marriage subplot in the last two or three days than the showrunners even bothered with. They clearly wanted a delaying tactic and did not bother actually thinking it through. Or if they did, then something hit the cutting room floor that would have been really nice to know.

He seems to think Koss was going to force a lot of other things too.

No, I said he could force things, not that he was going to. If you also read my other remarks, you'll note that I don't have a particularly high opinion of Koss and have said he could go in that direction, even though he remained too much of a blank slate to say yeah or nay. I'm pretty sure I went out of my way several times to reiterate that we had no actual data regarding Koss (again, blank slate) to do more than theorize and the forcing T'Pol to do certain things was simply one possibility. Please don't assume you know what I'm thinking.

so the only thing I can come up with was the set up was made by several parties for political reasons

To which I can simply inquire (again) what does Koss' family get out of this arrangement? Now, their name is attached to the borderline criminal (in Vulcan eyes) T'Pol who so clearly likes humans that she [A] decided to stay on their ship rather than come home at the appointed time for her marriage, [B] brought one home to meet her mother and [C] violated marriage tradition (again!) by returning to the human ship rather than spend the one year with her new husband. There are no benefits to this arrangement for them, only drawbacks. So again, there is no real logic to this marriage when you actually give it some thought and any presumptions on our part (they're Syrannites, for example) are simply wild guesses.

When it didn't he let T'Pol go no hard feelings. I say no hard feelings because they were both very cordial to each other. I don't think T'Pol felt anything for Koss, like or loathing.

Which is pretty much how I approached the whole thing back in Endeavour: Vigrid. T'Pol received a missive from Koss regarding the dissolution of their marriage and there were no hard feelings (for lack of a better term.) Trip hates his guts, but Koss isn't even a blip on T'Pol's radar. That's in the past and she's moving on with the mate of her choice.

Koss' father was prominent but I doubt he ever met a human before Trip, so his one line about him being T'Pol's "human friend" doesn't prove to me he held the same attitude of the VHC.

For me, it wasn't the term so much as Koss' tone. We've already gone over this, I think. You saw nothing wrong with it, whereas I saw him being condescending and looking down on Trip for being human. Different strokes and all that.

panyasan wrote:

WarpGirl wrote:Why hash it out? Hmm... In the words of James T. Kirk... Because it's there! I don't know about anyone else but I like to come up with "what if's", plausible "Why's", and "Maybe's" based on what we saw and didn't see. It's playtime, it's fun. And isn't it part of the reason these boards exist to begin with? Because if it isn't than why spend so much time on this stuff?

I agree. It's fun to discuss scenario's and try to make a character more 3-D, if that character interested you.

Most likely this is right, but I have to be honest: the only interest I feel in regard to Koss is the one that a prizefighter has in regard to his punching bag.

Doesn't say specifically (like everything else it their relationship). Could be divorce or annulment depending on point of view.

Kir'Shara http://www.chakoteya.net/Enterprise/85.htm
KOSS: The Captain told me you were in danger. I wouldn't have been a very good husband if I didn't help.
T'POL: I'm not certain when I'll be able to return. I'm aware that I promised your family that we would eventually live together.
KOSS: That's not why I've come. I'm releasing you from our marriage. I know you only bonded with me to help your mother. She's gone now. There's no reason for us to continue.
T'POL: You don't have to do this.
KOSS: I know.



Babel One http://www.chakoteya.net/Enterprise/88.htm
ARCHER: Hoshi tells me you got a transmission from Vulcan this morning.
T'POL: It was a personal message. It was from Koss. Our marriage has been officially dissolved.
ARCHER: I'm sorry to hear that.

crystalswolf wrote:Kir'Shara http://www.chakoteya.net/Enterprise/85.htm
KOSS: The Captain told me you were in danger. I wouldn't have been a very good husband if I didn't help.
T'POL: I'm not certain when I'll be able to return. I'm aware that I promised your family that we would eventually live together.
KOSS: That's not why I've come. I'm releasing you from our marriage. I know you only bonded with me to help your mother. She's gone now. There's no reason for us to continue.
T'POL: You don't have to do this.
KOSS: I know.

I know, I am one-sided: even the output stage of Koss was without neither honour or something appealing. The "mere artifice" had ended its assigned job; the reason of its existence had no longer any need to be.

Thanks CW I remembered when I woke up I had gotten it wrong. I hate being sick my brain is fuzzy!

Rigil If you are mad at me I'm sorry.

NP. Actually I see it as you are partially right. But then again, when it comes to the ambiguity of Koss, we all are.

Although after reading the Koss/T'Pol dialog, my opinion of the character Koss has shifted slightly but where it is now is set firmly.

WarpGirl wrote:Rigil If you are mad at me I'm sorry.

This is why the internet isn't always a good place to have conversations. I'm not mad at anyone. *shrug*

Rigil Kent wrote:You also need to take into account the Vulcan opinion of humanity at the time. From Koss' perspective, it's perfectly logical to let her go back to the short-lived, short-attention span human she's apparently enamored with. Given Tucker's reputation at this point (Ah'lenn and then inevitably Fishstick), it would make perfect sense if Koss simply believed Tucker would see something alien, female and shiny, and totally lose interest in T'Pol, which would force her to admit that a prurient interest in humans is illogical. That is, if Tucker doesn't go and get himself killed first. The longest human relationship is a pretty short one in Vulcan eyes, after all.

Or we can just admit it's sloppy writing and they hadn't thought that far ahead because honestly? Hollywood very rarely does think that far ahead with their plots.

Would Koss have cause to know Trip's "reputation"?