Thoughts on Koss?

[Rigil Kent]

Plus, there's the general fanon consensus that his family were Syrannites and the whole marriage thing was conceived by them (his family & T'Les) to provide her with some cover (that she promptly tossed aside when she went off into the desert to hang with T'Pau.)

[WarpGirl]

I said based on what we saw in the episodes (not just Home), there was evidence to HYPOTHESIZE, he is a good guy. Yeah blackmail isn't "nice" but a person being blackmailed has a choice to either pay up or let themselves be screwed over. A blackmailer's power is only as strong as the victim's desire to fight it. If a victim doesn't think they can fight it, than the blackmailer has the power. If the victim desides "screw you!" then the blackmailer is powerless.

Correct me if I'm wrong but this isn't the first time Koss OR his family "blackmailed" T'Pol. They did try to force her to return by saying they'd cancel her wedding. Not a pleasent prospect at the time, but leaving ENT was even more unpleasent at that point. However she stood her ground. In Home she made a different choice. I think it was the right one.

Also I don't remember T'Pol acting in anyway that showed she thought Koss was evil. She might not have wanted him to touch her, but that was understandable because of the situation, not necessarily because of the man himself. When he released her she acknowleged he was under no legal or moral obligation to do so.

When T'Pol has evidence that her people have engaged in something legally (P'Jem) or morally (the stigma of pa'nar) wrong she has stood up for what is right. In this situation did she in any way indicate she thought Koss was morally wrong for doing what he did?

PS I've been trying to catch Home for well over a year. I've looked on YouTube, hulu, and almost every other way to find it, nada. They say its on later today. However I did read the ENTIRE TRANSCRIPT more than once. I think I have a general idea as to what happened!!!!!!!!!!!

[aadarshinah]

Plus, there's the general fanon consensus that his family were Syrannites and the whole marriage thing was conceived by them (his family & T'Les) to provide her with some cover (that she promptly tossed aside when she went off into the desert to hang with T'Pau.)

My question on that is, how long have the Syrranites been around? For that idea to work, it would have to be about 60 years, and, since they are called Syrannites, they can't have existed for longer than Syrran himself has been around... Which I suppose could work, but 60 years is an awful long time to hide your religous beliefs from your family.

[WarpGirl]

Its possible. After the Reformation in England many noble families were secretly Catholic, even though technically Henery the 8th and Elizabeth the 1st didn't outlaw it. Some families had members of the Church of England while others privately followed the old church.

[Rigil Kent]

You also have to take into account the fact T'Pol & her mother weren't exactly close, so it would be easier for T'Les to hide any Syrannite tendencies, I'd think. Given the name, it's logical to presume they can't have been around longer than Syran, and one would presume he wouldn't become important until he's at least in his 20s or 30s. So ... 100 years? Give or take a decade or two...

I said based on what we saw in the episodes (not just Home), there was evidence to HYPOTHESIZE, he is a good guy.

Uh, no, you didn't. You said flat out "canonically, he's a good guy." That's not a hypothesis. That's a statement of fact.

In Home she made a different choice. I think it was the right one.

I don't and, based on T'Les' actions later in the season, it seems like she didn't either. The real problem with blackmail is the same thing with bribes - the price invariably gets higher. Remove the Vulcan arc & the discovery of Surak's katra from continuity and examine the situation dispassionately. Koss & his family have power over T'Pol now. Want her to do something? Threaten her mom. We already know that T'Pol was willing to sell her future away to keep T'Les protected. What else would she be willing to do? See the problem? If Koss & Co. were Syrannites, it's one thing, but if they're not? Well, she just sold herself into slavery for a mother who she apparently didn't have much in common with.

Also I don't remember T'Pol acting in anyway that showed she thought Koss was evil. She might not have wanted him to touch her, but that was understandable because of the situation, not necessarily because of the man himself. When he released her she acknowleged he was under no legal or moral obligation to do so.

When T'Pol has evidence that her people have engaged in something legally (P'Jem) or morally (the stigma of pa'nar) wrong she has stood up for what is right. In this situation did she in any way indicate she thought Koss was morally wrong for doing what he did?

And once again, you seem stuck on the belief that I actually think Koss is a crazed maniac who kills people for sport when I have consistently said we have inadequate information about him to formulate more than a rudimentary take on him. At no time have I said that I really believe he is more than what he was shown to be on the show: a dull, unimaginative tool of his parents. Besides, T'Pol has also been repeatedly deceived by Vulcan(s) - they established during the Vulcan arc that she worked alongside Talok in the past (thus, she knew the guy better than she knew Koss whom she had met only a few times), yet remained ignorant of the fact Talok was, in fact, a Romulan. She had no knowledge whatsoever that Soval was capable of melding. That moron in "The Seventh" was able to snow her fairly easily. Etc. Apparently, it isn't all that difficult to deceive T'Pol about important matters (look at how easily Trip was able to make her believe that he wasn't in love with her.)

As to her acting in a way that indicated she thought Koss was wrong, I have to say yes, she kind of did to me. In "Home," she struck me as being (in a Vulcany way) repulsed at the threat of blackmail, but since she was basically taking one for the team (in this case, her mom), she swallowed her disgust and sold her future away. Hell, she didn't exactly seem pleased back in "Breaking the Ice" when the marriage was threatened. Throughout the course of the show, T'Pol struck me as someone more than willing to stand up for other people, but seemed to take the hits against her as something deserved (which makes me wonder about her self-image personally.)

[aadarshinah]

Throughout the course of the show, T'Pol struck me as someone more than willing to stand up for other people, but seemed to take the hits against her as something deserved (which makes me wonder about her self-image personally.)

If you've been told all your life that your emotions are too close to the surface and that your choices are... unusual... at best, I imagine that you wouldn't have the best self-image either.

[Rigil Kent]

Throughout the course of the show, T'Pol struck me as someone more than willing to stand up for other people, but seemed to take the hits against her as something deserved (which makes me wonder about her self-image personally.)

If you've been told all your life that your emotions are too close to the surface and that your choices are... unusual... at best, I imagine that you wouldn't have the best self-image either.

No, I don't disagree with you there. It just strikes me as an interesting facet of her personality that she would charge the gates of Hell with naught but a bucket of water to stand up for others, but seems to think she should be flogged to within an inch of her life for daring to almost crack a smile. And again, it doesn't do a lot for my opinion of T'Les, ya know? She thoroughly screwed Polly up...

[WarpGirl]

You also have to take into account the fact T'Pol & her mother weren't exactly close, so it would be easier for T'Les to hide any Syrannite tendencies, I'd think. Given the name, it's logical to presume they can't have been around longer than Syran, and one would presume he wouldn't become important until he's at least in his 20s or 30s. So ... 100 years? Give or take a decade or two...

I said based on what we saw in the episodes (not just Home), there was evidence to HYPOTHESIZE, he is a good guy.

Uh, no, you didn't. You said flat out "canonically, he's a good guy." That's not a hypothesis. That's a statement of fact.

Um I said BOTH in previous posts last night when I was talking to aadarshinah about their being some evidence Koss wasn't scum. When I said that canonically Koss was a good guy it was in addition to that earlier conversation with aadarshinah, because we were discussing all the canonical evidence that we saw, that could prove Koss might be a "good guy." Maybe you should go back and read the whole thing.

I don't and, based on T'Les' actions later in the season, it seems like she didn't either. The real problem with blackmail is the same thing with bribes - the price invariably gets higher. Remove the Vulcan arc & the discovery of Surak's katra from continuity and examine the situation dispassionately. Koss & his family have power over T'Pol now. Want her to do something? Threaten her mom. We already know that T'Pol was willing to sell her future away to keep T'Les protected. What else would she be willing to do? See the problem? If Koss & Co. were Syrannites, it's one thing, but if they're not? Well, she just sold herself into slavery for a mother who she apparently didn't have much in common with.

A valid point. But as you said we don't know one way or the other. From what we saw, there was no intent to harm her.

And once again, you seem stuck on the belief that I actually think Koss is a crazed maniac who kills people for sport when I have consistently said we have inadequate information about him to formulate more than a rudimentary take on him. At no time have I said that I really believe he is more than what he was shown to be on the show: a dull, unimaginative tool of his parents.

Not really like you I was playing Devil's advocate!

Besides, T'Pol has also been repeatedly deceived by Vulcan(s) - they established during the Vulcan arc that she worked alongside Talok in the past (thus, she knew the guy better than she knew Koss whom she had met only a few times), yet remained ignorant of the fact Talok was, in fact, a Romulan. She had no knowledge whatsoever that Soval was capable of melding. That moron in "The Seventh" was able to snow her fairly easily. Etc. Apparently, it isn't all that difficult to deceive T'Pol about important matters (look at how easily Trip was able to make her believe that he wasn't in love with her.)

As to her acting in a way that indicated she thought Koss was wrong, I have to say yes, she kind of did to me. In "Home," she struck me as being (in a Vulcany way) repulsed at the threat of blackmail, but since she was basically taking one for the team (in this case, her mom), she swallowed her disgust and sold her future away. Hell, she didn't exactly seem pleased back in "Breaking the Ice" when the marriage was threatened.

Being repulsed or disgusted does not mean a person automatically thinks a person who wrngs them is immoral or evil.

Throughout the course of the show, T'Pol struck me as someone more than willing to stand up for other people, but seemed to take the hits against her as something deserved (which makes me wonder about her self-image personally.

Now that is facinating!

[aadarshinah]

Once had a philosophy teacher who had the most witty way of saying that we are all the sum of our parents mistakes. If I could remember it, it would be most apropos....

And I'm begining to think we need a devil-smilie or special font or something to let people know when we're playing devil's advocate...

[WarpGirl]

Not a bad idea. A little pitchfork would work wonders!!!! Please Boss?

[Brandyjane]

And since we have what? Two or three scenes in total where we actually see Koss, and the show did a poor (non-existent) job of explaining his motivations, we honestly have no idea what Koss was really like. He could have been a Lawful Good paladin, or the Vulcan equivalent of that Dexter guy from the Showtime series about the serial killer. There simply isn't adequate information to formulate an actual opinion regarding him.

You just gave me a story idea! A Dextar-like Koss finds out about what Tolaris did to T'Pol and goes after him, not because he cares about his ex-wife, but because he just likes killing Vulcan scum.

[Kevin Thomas Riley]

Plus, there's the general fanon consensus that his family were Syrannites and the whole marriage thing was conceived by them (his family & T'Les) to provide her with some cover...

I don't know if it's the "general fanon consensus". But I do know this is my theory, one that I developed back when the episodes originally aired. But I'd like for my theory to have developed into the general fan consensus.

[WarpGirl]

OK I FINALLY saw Home Hooray! Now all I have left is Countdown and Observer Effect I think... Maybe the one where T'Pol is captured by the Orians...

Now I won't pontificate here about the entire episode, because ick not the place... However in reguards to my thoughts on Koss I stand by everything I've said thus far. From what I saw and heard, I got the impression that his parents were a major force in his actions. Definitely equal to his own desire to follow tradition. Which I don't really blame him for, it was clear he was far more sheltered than T'Pol. I doubt it occured to him that they might not suit each other. In any case I thought he treated her very respectfully, he was courteous, concerned when she told him about her health, and I didn't find him insincere. I like him. I think he's probably a great guy, just not right for T'Pol.

Most important aspect of the episode T'Pol makes it clear that the decision was hers, and hers alone. Yeah the circumstances weren't ideal, but Koss did tell her to do what she wanted.

I was going to link to KTR's review but now its not necessary. Hey Brandyjane GO FOR IT!

[Silverbullet]

WG, what did you think of T'Les? Koss was only part of the equation. T'Les had a lot to do with the blackmail. Did you think T'Les was lying to T'pol when she didn't look at T'Pol while talking to her. What about when T'Les was badmouthing T'Pol being with a Human and having children with him. She laid a pretty good guilt trip on T'Pol too.

It has alway sbothered me that T'POl bore the blame for the destruction of the Monestary when it was Archer who was responsible for it. T'Pol was ordered to turn over the evidence to Shran. It was not voluntary on her part but she is blamed in later episodes and in home.

[WarpGirl]

SB if you really want to know I'll have to find the official Home thread. This is the Koss thread. I won't ramble about the entire episode here.

Most interesting thing about Koss in Home he sent a paper letter to T'Pol. I thought that was way cool and kind of unique. We very rarely see paper in Trek.