Thoughts on Koss?

[WarpGirl]

The closest thing I have ever seen to be remotely sympathetic to Tolaris were two fics that gave him schisophrenic sypmtoms, or the pa'nar had turned his brain into swiss cheese long before he met T'Pol. But I gotta say I can't think of Tolaris as anything but pure evil.

Koss on the other hand seems to have enough evidence where you could hypothesize that he is a good guy. If I were an average Vulcan girl with an interest in architecture (well I am as a human) I'd accept marrying him.

[aadarshinah]

I agree, think it'd be rather hard to paint Tolaris in a good light. Just kinda curious to see if anyone has (or could) manage it.

Koss, on the other hand, I suppose you could be quite happy with - if, as you say, you were an average Vulcan.

[WarpGirl]

Of course T'Pol isn't your average Vulcan But I gotta admit sometimes I wish I was. Especially after the last smarmy guy that hit on me last week.

[Alelou]

I think Tolaris is smarmy-arrogant-creepy from beginning to end. I think the actor did a good job of making him supremely unlikeable. I'd have to see his parents abusing him brutally in childhood to develop any sympathy for him at all, and even then -- well, sometimes there are reasons people become sociopaths, but at the end of the day they're still sociopaths.

[WarpGirl]

Oh Kudos to the actor who played him, absolutely. But I have far more sinister imaginings as to why Tolaris is the way he is. But truthfully I don't think people can become sociopaths. I think there must be something wrong with their minds at birth, abuse and other factors just compound the issue. Not that I don't feel terrible when anyone is put through abuse, but I don't think it turns people into sociopaths on its own.

In any case no matter how you feel about Koss' actions it's pretty obvious he's far superior as a man. He didn't take any "marital rights" and he let T'Pol go. So I'd say canonically he's a good guy.

[Rigil Kent]

Anyway.....I could never figure out exatly WHY he would insist on going through with the marriage considering T'Pol was quite the outcast at the time, AND she had p'anars AND she was affected by her addiction, AND she was carrying on a romantic relationship with a human, UNLESS Koss was completely old-school in his views and very, very sheltered.

The general consensus is that his family were Syrannites although there is no canonical evidence to confirm or deny that theory. As it is, if you go entirely by what was on the screen, you're entirely correct: there was no logical reason why Koss or his family would insist on the marriage taking place and, in fact, a boatload of reasons for them not to. Which is why the entire marriage plot in season 4 feels exactly like the stalling tactic in regards to the TnT relationship that it was.

It always seemed weird to me that Koss didn't think T'Pol was tainted by it and found it amusing.

It didn't seem to me like he found it amusing, but came across more as repulsed or contemptuous (in a Vulcan way) that she would let herself stoop to such a level.

He didn't take any "marital rights" and he let T'Pol go. So I'd say canonically he's a good guy.

Okay, because he didn't force T'Pol (physically, emotionally, whatever) into having sex with him, he's a "good guy"? Forgive me, but that frankly makes zero sense to me. He forced her into a marriage that she very clearly did not want by using emotional blackmail ("marry me, or your mom gets really screwed over"), and when it became patently clear that this marriage would remain a sham, he cut his losses. That's not a "good guy" to me. No, he wasn't utter filth like Tolaris (or "He Who Should Have Been Airlocked"), but he was certainly not a "good guy" by any stretch of the imagination.

And since we have what? Two or three scenes in total where we actually see Koss, and the show did a poor (non-existent) job of explaining his motivations, we honestly have no idea what Koss was really like. He could have been a Lawful Good paladin, or the Vulcan equivalent of that Dexter guy from the Showtime series about the serial killer. There simply isn't adequate information to formulate an actual opinion regarding him.

[WarpGirl]

Um so what just because there's no way to prove he's not as bad as Tolaris means nobody can make the assumption he's a good guy? Last time I checked everyone has an opinion about everything. Truthfully, if Home is on at 4 today I'll watch it, maybe revise my opinion, but from everything I've heard about it the last year or so, T'LES is more guilty of blackmail than Koss.

[Alelou]

But truthfully I don't think people can become sociopaths. I think there must be something wrong with their minds at birth, abuse and other factors just compound the issue. Not that I don't feel terrible when anyone is put through abuse, but I don't think it turns people into sociopaths on its own.

Probably some children are born with bad personalities, but there's a fair amount of data suggesting that you have a good shot at creating a sociopath if you withold affection and physical contact from an infant (sometimes because of inescapable medical issues), then give him a chaotic, inconsistent or crazy home environment marked by violence, abuse, neglect, or mental illness.

And unfortunately that is reality for quite a few children. The wonderful thing is that so many of them are resilient enough to survive that without turning into sociopaths.

This is not really related, but I just think the question of personality is fascinating. I find it intriguing that the military is concerned about the spike in suicides/murders/accidental deaths in the ranks (which, combined, are actually causing more casualities than battle) and theorizing that they are attracting 'thrill-seekers' into the volunteer army at this point -- people who are going to take more risks and have a harder time than most returning to humdrum routine when it's all over.

[Rigil Kent]

Um so what just because there's no way to prove he's not as bad as Tolaris means nobody can make the assumption he's a good guy? Last time I checked everyone has an opinion about everything.

I was going off your words. You said "He didn't take any "marital rights" and he let T'Pol go. So I'd say canonically he's a good guy." Ergo, it seemed you were basing your opinion on the fact he didn't make her sleep with him [A] and he dissolved the utter sham of a marriage (that would have to have made him the butt of many Vulcan jokes back at home) [B], which made him a good guy [C]. Thus, A+B=C. That did not make any sense to me. Still doesn't actually.

T'LES is more guilty of blackmail than Koss.

No, don't disagree with this really. She's just as guilty as he is, IMO, probably moreso since she's T'Pol's mom and hung her daughter out to dry both before the marriage and then later, when she rushed off to join the Syrannites. Me, I'm not a particularly big fan of either T'Les or Koss because of this entire plot. The TnT scenes in "Home" were very well acted, but overall, the entire thing is just a silly roadblock to them writing an actual TnT relationship (more of the usual "will-they-won't-they, Ross/Rachel" crap.)

[aadarshinah]

Well, at least Koss wasn't as overtly sleezy as Tolaris. That's gotta be something in his favour. If he's socially skilled enough not to scream "jerk" when you look at him, Koss can't be a complete sociopath.

[Rigil Kent]

Well, at least Koss wasn't as overtly sleezy as Tolaris. That's gotta be something in his favour. If he's socially skilled enough not to scream "jerk" when you look at him, Koss can't be a complete sociopath.

OR it could mean he's just exceptionally good at concealing his ... issues. For all we know, he likes to torture sehlats in his spare time. We simply don't have enough information about him. It's always the quiet, unassuming nut you have to watch out for. How many times have you heard or seen on the news "he was such a nice guy; who knew he'd chop those Girl Scouts up into cookies?"

As to me, I'd rather he (and his family) were Romulan sympathizers who were trying to use T'Pol to gain intel on human activities, but that turned out to be a spectacular failure (say, Koss sent her several letters, but she never responded, and then T'Les died) so they cut their losses following the Vulcan arc. She clearly wasn't of much use to them...

[WarpGirl]

Rigil you are right in the fact that Koss may indeed torture cats. But nothing we saw seemed to indicate he was anything other than your average Vulcan man following tradition. Now I admit it seems like Home didn't explain why he did so. But however you feel about the episode its hardly a sound basis for pushing the evil Koss theory. Because frankly he told the truth, if T'Pol didn't marry him he could not help her mother. It may stink, but its not evil. T'Pol could have run to Enterprise and never looked back. She was offered a comission, and Archer would not have let her be held against her will.

[Rigil Kent]

But however you feel about the episode its hardly a sound basis for pushing the evil Koss theory.

I have never pushed the "evil Koss theory." If you go back and read all of my various remarks about Koss, I've consistently argued against that theory when it kept showing up in fanfics or board posts. Hell, in this very thread, (the third response, in fact), I stated:

I'm actually fairly indifferent toward him since he was clearly introduced to be little more than a roadblock for the TnT relationship. I don't really buy that he "cared" for T'Pol more than was proper for a Vulcan, but that's probably because I found the whole "blackmailing someone into marriage" idea to be pretty reprehensible. At best, I found him to be dull and not particularly imaginative - he strikes me as someone who is simply doing what he was told by his father, likely for political reasons ...

My more recent remarks about him potentially being a secret sociopath (or even a Romulan sympathizer) were me playing Devil's advocate - we simply do not have the correct amount of information on hand to make a true judgment call about the character, so arguing "he's a good guy!" or "he's scum!" is silly regardless of what side of the argument one falls on. You were the one making a blanket assertion about his character - he's canonically a good guy, you said - even though you've admitted to not having seen "Home" (which is, IMO, essential to forming an opinion regarding Koss & the entire TnT relationship.)

Because frankly he told the truth, if T'Pol didn't marry him he could not help her mother. It may stink, but its not evil.

It's blackmail. While it might not be on the same level as Tolaris' evil, it's still a decidedly negative way of going about things. So it's a minor evil. For all we know, Koss' family is behind T'Les' getting the shaft. Do I think that likely? Not really, but its a possibility. Again, insufficient information.

T'Pol could have run to Enterprise and never looked back.

Yeah, and T'Les would have gotten thoroughly and completely screwed over and T'Pol would have had to live with herself knowing she was at least partially responsible.

[aadarshinah]

Is it safe to assume the general concensus here is:

Blackmail is bad.
Blackmailing someone into marriage is worse.
Rape, sexual and mental, is worse still.

and

Koss, while a blackmailer, is probably a good guy otherwise, but may very well be a serial murderer and we'd never know.

?

[Alelou]

Sounds about right, though the blackmailer part may consist of him merely of doing his parents' bidding.