VOY Haters and Lovers Talk Here!

Romulans, phase-inverters, friendships, OH MY!

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Re: VOY Haters and Lovers Talk Here!

Postby WarpGirl » Wed May 05, 2010 6:46 am

Something tells me she would not be thrilled. We'd have a tough fight. She beat the crud out of a Vulcan with Pon Farr. Um not the choice I would have made but... It was pretty much a perfect episode.
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And by people WG had herself in mind, but then the quote would have been ruined.
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Re: VOY Haters and Lovers Talk Here!

Postby trek_shipper » Wed May 05, 2010 2:02 pm

Definitely. Looove that episode so much. It's my favourite star trek episode of any of the series. "If anyone is gonna smash your arrogant little face in, I will!" hahaha.

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Re: VOY Haters and Lovers Talk Here!

Postby WarpGirl » Wed May 05, 2010 3:49 pm

I know it rocks! Blows Bound right out of the water. They are the ultimate Trek pair. BTW I cannot find your fic on them it is so distressing. Link? I loved VOY so much, I miss it. Even the most heavy 7of9 episodes and I didn't like her. <sigh> Truthfully, I miss characters that I didn't have the urge to scream at every week. I mean yeah I screamed at P/T every now and then, but they always made up right away! No waiting weeks, and then being let down. I think Ethan Phillips is so brilliant that even when Neelix was annoying I adored him. But that whole cast was not only brilliant, but they blended so wonderfully. You felt like they were a family. Even the minor characters like Carry. Wasn't it awful when he died?
Some of these people haven't taken their medication. Let's see what happens now...
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And by people WG had herself in mind, but then the quote would have been ruined.
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Re: VOY Haters and Lovers Talk Here!

Postby trek_shipper » Wed May 05, 2010 4:30 pm

Ah, yes! lol! I felt so bad when he died because it was kind of like...he was in a few episodes at the beginning, then he was just gone for five seasons or something, then they brought him back only to kill him off. I liked him, too. 7 of 9, however, was another story....urgh...she got less annoying by the end (mildly) but I still preferred Kes. Although, Neelix got less annoying after Kes left...ah, I loved it all, who am I kidding? I loved Neelix in "Day of Honour" even though he wasn't in it all that much...I just loved his line about letting B'Elanna insult him or question his parentage if she needed to let off steam. haha.

My fanfiction is on ff.net-www.fanfiction.net/~jasperssecondchoice (don't mind the name, was going through a bit of a Twilight-the books, not the ENT episode, lol-phase at the time, haha) I have a few DS9 and TNG stories on there as well as my VOY fics but I don't think I even finished any of them. Maybe one of my DS9 ones, but i'm not sure. I should really pull them down and just stick to Voyager, it's what I know best. lol.

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Re: VOY Haters and Lovers Talk Here!

Postby WarpGirl » Wed May 05, 2010 4:38 pm

Yey! Thank you.
Some of these people haven't taken their medication. Let's see what happens now...
Donna Moss: The West Wing


And by people WG had herself in mind, but then the quote would have been ruined.
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Re: VOY Haters and Lovers Talk Here!

Postby trek_shipper » Wed May 05, 2010 5:34 pm

No problem-hope you enjoy them :) (Pssst-I love feedback! lol)

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Re: VOY Haters and Lovers Talk Here!

Postby WarpGirl » Wed May 05, 2010 5:35 pm

I usually don't like to comment on FF.net I had some nightmares there with the Star Wars people. But I'll PM you here.
Some of these people haven't taken their medication. Let's see what happens now...
Donna Moss: The West Wing


And by people WG had herself in mind, but then the quote would have been ruined.
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Re: VOY Haters and Lovers Talk Here!

Postby trek_shipper » Wed May 05, 2010 5:59 pm

Yeah unfortunately it can be hit and miss with people on there :( I've been lucky so far but have seen some that have not been so lucky.

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Re: VOY Haters and Lovers Talk Here!

Postby WarpGirl » Wed May 05, 2010 8:26 pm

Well I hope you never have trouble. So favorite Janeway line? Mine is "Ma'am is acceptable in a crunch." But Tom always called her Ma'am and it was just hot.
Some of these people haven't taken their medication. Let's see what happens now...
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And by people WG had herself in mind, but then the quote would have been ruined.
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Re: VOY Haters and Lovers Talk Here!

Postby Ulva » Tue May 10, 2011 8:43 pm

I don't have a problem with VOY though I'm not crazy about it. I liked Janeway. I didn't like Neelix. At the time when it was airing in Sweden I was a casual watcher, after years of indoctrination from a ST (TOS that is) crazy friend of mine who got me curious while TNG still aired, and once VOY came around I kept watching. I still haven't watched the entire DS9 (only episodes here and there on the local sci fi channel) so I can't compare that to VOY I'm afraid.

I think the reason why I got more invested in ENT compared to the other Trek is spelled community. I had a place to go to and hang and talk about Trek because of Internet. If I'd had that in the 90's the way I have the past 10 years, maybe I would have felt differently about TNG and VOY. Except for this one friend, who at times were very far off because I moved around and not even stayed in Sweden, no one were interested in discussing Trek. At least I tend to become more invested if I can discuss something.

BTW, my favourite sci fi series evah is Farscape. I re-watched it recently and was reminded just how much I LOVE it. I love Star Trek, but Farscape is my #1. Believe it or not, it's not because of the in yer face romance set up between Crichton and Aeryn, but because it's a story about trust and friendship. In that sense it's actually rather similar to Firefly (another one I really liked).
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Re: VOY Haters and Lovers Talk Here!

Postby enterprikayak » Tue May 10, 2011 9:13 pm

ooooh, if i coulda been part of a VOY bulletin board? i would have LOVED that.
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Re: VOY Haters and Lovers Talk Here!

Postby WarpGirl » Tue May 10, 2011 9:34 pm

Oh me too!
Some of these people haven't taken their medication. Let's see what happens now...
Donna Moss: The West Wing


And by people WG had herself in mind, but then the quote would have been ruined.
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Re: VOY Haters and Lovers Talk Here!

Postby WarpGirl » Tue Aug 23, 2011 12:41 am

JusTripn wrote:I'm on vacation. My kids sleep in till noon each day, so I'm using the time to rewatch season 7 of Voyager. My brain is like a seive. I don't remember any of this, so I am on the edge of my seat as each "mystery" unfolds, lol . . . Thoroughly enjoying this. Ahh! There are some advantages to old age. I need to leave a note for whoever is taking care of me in the old peoples's home: play old Star Trek episodes for me!

marchale will say something positive about Voyager.

I saw Chakotay grab B'Elanna by the arm and tell her something. Wish I could remember what it was, lol . . Point is, yes he would and did say something like that. Remember when B'Elanna got depressed and had a death wish after learning all her Maqui friends had been killed? It was Chakotay who saved her, or tried. Tom Paris couldn't do anything for her. She was too stubborn.

I was just going to say that Chakotay was captain of the Maqui ship, so I don't think he was being a "daddy" with regard to B'lanna. Rather he felt responsibility towards her as her former captain and she would have looked up to him as her former captain reason, while they were also comarades.


WarpGirl wrote:Oooh finally someone with something positive to say about VOY

True but we're on opposite sides.

Daddy complexes are not healthy. Besides not even Chakotay would have the guts to tell B'Elanna "you've been spitting venom for days and frankly it's getting boring," I like a relationship where it's okay to get in each other's faces when you see something wrong and go, "hey I love you I'm here now cut it out!" More importantly, unlike Chakotay and TnT they NEVER EVER gave up!

Very true. But again Chakotay acted like a father. She would get out of line and he would repremand her as 2IC and as a paternal figure. And yes he did make the final push to help her break through her depression. But those were usually extreme cases. For the most part when it was just "the klingon" moods getting the better of her he never really pushed any. He'd glare, she'd go quiet and steam.

Tom challenged her. He gave as good as he got. He never gave her a "shut up and behave" glare. He let her vent. There's a great song called Be That Way, by Martina McBride. It's perfect, for them.


Marchale wrote:Yeah, I love Voyager too (even though I prefer Enterprise); but while I bear no ill will towards your beloved Tom Paris, I would've much preferred to see B'Elanna end up with Chakotay instead, maybe it's just the Maquis sympathizer in me,
Thanks for pointing that out, that was the "Extreme Risk" episode. Although he did somewhat the same thing in calming her down in the "Parallax" episode too when she broke the nose of the guy Janeway had as a Cheif Engineer before Chakotay got B'Elanna her job as their Chief Engineer.
Well, I don't want to argue with you here, but as a fan of C/T, I don't see it as "fatherly" a relationship as you obviously do. Granted, Chakotay is somewhat older than B'Elanna (I thought maybe by 10 or 15 years, not the 20+ years you must think it is), I thought they were the closest of friends on Voyager, not a father-daughter type of thing. But I think maybe the reason I thought that (outside of the fact that I think they made a cute couple together) was partly because I read in Jeri Taylor's book "Pathways" (which dealt with the lives of several characters before they came on board Voyager) how B'Elanna used to secretly lust after Chakotay back when they were on board The Liberty and that she used to fantasize about how he'd come into her quarters late at night to make love to her instead of her best friend at the time, Seska; that's back when Chakotay was involved with Seska (way before it was discovered that Seska was actually a Cardassian spy). Anyway, in the "Persistance Of Vision" episode of Voyager, B'Elanna was a little shaken up by the fact that she still had lust in her heart towards Chakotay even after she got involved with Tom, as witnessed by them going at it in bed almost as "lustily" as Trip & T'Pol did in that shower scene from Damage. Anyway, between the "unrequited lust" B'Elanna had towards Chakotay in Jeri Taylor's book and all that passionate kissing and "damn near ready to start doing it" between Chakotay and B'Elanna in the "Persistance Of Vision" episode of Voyager - ahh, I think their relationship was more best friends (after Seska betrayed them both) instead of a "fatherly" type thing; as that sounds like a pretty sicko way to feel towards someone a person would veiw as a "father figure", hence - I don't think Chakotay was as old as you do, nor that her feelings towards him were as platonic as you seem to think they were either.

Well, to each their own. Personally, I never cared for Janeway at all, especially not when they had her so called "action Janeway" type character trying to emasculate Chakotay and trying to turn him into her little lap puppy or something. Naw, I think Chakotay was a casualty in their trying to show how much "balls" Janeway had there. And that was really a shame in my opinion because initially in the earlier seasons (especially the first two), TPTB actually let Chakotay show some guts; and too, as a C/Ter, I was disappointed they had him pining after a broad I really didn't like when I would've much preferred to see him and B'Elanna get together after Seska turned out to be a Cardassian spy. So, you think C/7 was even worse, eh? Ahh, I'm not really a fan of C/7 either - although I laughed like hell when they got together because I thought, well good - it's not the C/T pairing I would've preferred, but at least that's what Janeway deserved for ignoring him for all those years; and for treating him like her little lap puppy; that was a real waste of what could've been a great character (like he was to begin with in the earlier Voyager episodes).

Well, it's fine with me if you want to do that, hon - and I apologize if I misunderstood you; like I said earlier, I wasn't trying to argue with you here at all - I'm sure the vast majority of Voyager fans are very glad B'Elanna and Tom got together instead of her with Chakotay. To each their own, right?


Silverbullet wrote:Never cared for Chakoty. Certainly not paired with Torres. Paris and Torres were great together.Chakoty really would not have been a good pairing with anyone on board not even Janeway.

Chakoty and 7 of 9 was even wose.

Sorry

SB


Okay this was a conversation on the What Are You... Thread. Now I want to put it out before I respond that I passionately LOVE VOY and it's characters... My response is not meant to demean any character. There is no Trek that is as close to my heart as this one, so when I give my reasons for not seeing a non-canon pairing it is because of my deep devotion to the characters. Okay so 7of9 and Kes don't get the same level of devotion BUT they are still very important to me, even more so as I get older. Give me a few minutes to clean up the mess from dinner and I'll respond.
Some of these people haven't taken their medication. Let's see what happens now...
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And by people WG had herself in mind, but then the quote would have been ruined.
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Re: VOY Haters and Lovers Talk Here!

Postby WarpGirl » Tue Aug 23, 2011 2:25 am

Okay now about B'Elanna and Chakotay, and "Daddy Complexes." Marchale said that I must think Chakotay is much older than he is. Actually, I don't. B'Elanna was between 21 and 22 years old when Liberty was lost in the Badlands. She was 17 when she entered the Academy, 19 when she left. She was barely 20 when she met Chakotay.

Chakotay was born in 2329, Liberty was stranded in 2371, making him 42 when they were stranded in the Delta Quadrent. So yes indeed Chakotay is 20 years older than B'ELanna more than old enough to be her father.

Now, as for B'Elanna's infatuation with Chakotay... Yes, she lusted after him. Who can blame her? He was probably the first DECENT human male she had ever met and had a personal relationship with. Her Father was a first class jerk. We won't get into "Max" and that god awful BLT nickname. And Maquis Tom is not exactly a prize at that point.

Here is a kind, courageous, principled, loyal, caring, warrior guy who saves her and gives her a purpose. And he's human! Of course she's going to be drawn to him, of course she's going to lust after him. She's a young woman with a longing to be loved and accepted, she's got hormones, KLINGON hormones. So yes, she is infatuated.

Now Chakotay is a great guy, AWFUL taste in women by and large, but GREAT GUY. And he'd naturally want to take this talented, strong, wounded, brilliant young woman under his wing. Because let's face it B'Elanna ROCKS! He wants to foster her talent, give her ways to take all of that agression and pain and use it constructively. He wants to build her self-esteem. He wants to protect her. But he is not in any way sexually attracted to her.

For him, B'Elanna is family, and someone he is responsible for because she is a member of his crew... And while he has given her affection, loyalty, friendship, and protection, he treated her as a daughter, or at the very least a sister. Like I said, he had a patented "Shut up and behave" glare, and bark. Great for an authority figure, not-so-much for a lover.

Now the reason we didn't see a P/T wedding was because they did one. In Course Oblivion P/T's "doubles" had a ceremony, who gave the bride away? CHAKOTAY. That's the father's role in a human ceremony. When asked why they didn't show P/T's "real" wedding, TPTB and Ms. Dawson and Mr. McNeill's answers were all the same. you already saw it.

But if that's not enough evidence I humbly direct you to the best Trek Episode EVER... Blood Fever! B'Elanna in the throws of Pon Farr, with Chakotay within reach rejects him. Now as any rabid Vulcan fan knows when someone in Pon Farr is within reach of their heart's desire they WON'T accept another mate. Again Chakotay is right in front of her!

Obviously, any non-platonic feelings and infatuations B'Elanna had for Chakotay died out. She came to consider him a father figure. It isn't uncommon for young women to become attracted to men that either resemble their fathers in some way, or are the men they WISH their father's were. This is especially true when their father's abandon them, or abuse them in some way.

Chakotay was the first human man to give her loyalty and affection unconditionally. She couldn't push him away, and he would never leave. The fact that she fell in love with that for a short time, is not creepy. It's natural. But it ran it's course.

BTW Ms. Dawson was AWESOME tonight in her guest spot on The Closer, and she looked FABULOUS!
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Re: VOY Haters and Lovers Talk Here!

Postby marchale » Tue Aug 23, 2011 3:17 am

WarpGirl wrote:Okay now about B'Elanna and Chakotay, and "Daddy Complexes." Marchale said that I must think Chakotay is much older than he is. Actually, I don't. B'Elanna was between 21 and 22 years old when Liberty was lost in the Badlands. She was 17 when she entered the Academy, 19 when she left. She was barely 20 when she met Chakotay.

Chakotay was born in 2329, Liberty was stranded in 2371, making him 42 when they were stranded in the Delta Quadrent. So yes indeed Chakotay is 20 years older than B'ELanna more than old enough to be her father.

Now, as for B'Elanna's infatuation with Chakotay... Yes, she lusted after him. Who can blame her? He was probably the first DECENT human male she had ever met and had a personal relationship with. Her Father was a first class jerk. We won't get into "Max" and that god awful BLT nickname. And Maquis Tom is not exactly a prize at that point.

Here is a kind, courageous, principled, loyal, caring, warrior guy who saves her and gives her a purpose. And he's human! Of course she's going to be drawn to him, of course she's going to lust after him. She's a young woman with a longing to be loved and accepted, she's got hormones, KLINGON hormones. So yes, she is infatuated.

Now Chakotay is a great guy, AWFUL taste in women by and large, but GREAT GUY. And he'd naturally want to take this talented, strong, wounded, brilliant young woman under his wing. Because let's face it B'Elanna ROCKS! He wants to foster her talent, give her ways to take all of that agression and pain and use it constructively. He wants to build her self-esteem. He wants to protect her. But he is not in any way sexually attracted to her.

For him, B'Elanna is family, and someone he is responsible for because she is a member of his crew... And while he has given her affection, loyalty, friendship, and protection, he treated her as a daughter, or at the very least a sister. Like I said, he had a patented "Shut up and behave" glare, and bark. Great for an authority figure, not-so-much for a lover.

Now the reason we didn't see a P/T wedding was because they did one. In Course Oblivion P/T's "doubles" had a ceremony, who gave the bride away? CHAKOTAY. That's the father's role in a human ceremony. When asked why they didn't show P/T's "real" wedding, TPTB and Ms. Dawson and Mr. McNeill's answers were all the same. you already saw it.

But if that's not enough evidence I humbly direct you to the best Trek Episode EVER... Blood Fever! B'Elanna in the throws of Pon Farr, with Chakotay within reach rejects him. Now as any rabid Vulcan fan knows when someone in Pon Farr is within reach of their heart's desire they WON'T accept another mate. Again Chakotay is right in front of her!

Obviously, any non-platonic feelings and infatuations B'Elanna had for Chakotay died out. She came to consider him a father figure. It isn't uncommon for young women to become attracted to men that either resemble their fathers in some way, or are the men they WISH their father's were. This is especially true when their father's abandon them, or abuse them in some way.

Chakotay was the first human man to give her loyalty and affection unconditionally. She couldn't push him away, and he would never leave. The fact that she fell in love with that for a short time, is not creepy. It's natural. But it ran it's course.

BTW Ms. Dawson was AWESOME tonight in her guest spot on The Closer, and she looked FABULOUS!



Wow, what an awesome post you made there, WarpGirl - I think you (as well as B'Elanna) rock too! As a C/Ter, I would've prefered to have seen things work out differently between them, but after reading your post here, I can sure see why it didn't work out the way I wish it had. BTW, I don't know if you read Jeri Taylor's book "Pathways" or not, but another reason why B'Elanna might've felt drawn towards Chakotay (at least initially anyway) is because when they initially met (according to Ms. Taylor's book there) Chakotay just saved her life - she was in the process of having some alien creep attempting to rape her and who no doubt would've killed her as he had already killed the captain of the 2 person ship she was working on at the time, so when Chakotay entered the picture (and killed the bastard rapist/murderer) she might've felt that "my hero" sort of feeling towards him as well too for saving her from that fate.

But anyway, I think its saying something if a P/Ter like you can convince a C/Ter like me that she probably was better off with Tom instead of Chakotay (even if I had wished they had written it differently!), so my hats off to you for that post there :hatsoff: - you made an excellent case that definately has me feeling better about the Paris-Torres romance. (Thanks!)

And if you and EK are serious about your interest in a Voyager forum where you can discuss tons of Voyager related topics, you might want to join us over on VAMB, I've been a member there for years and it's really cool, here's the link for it: http://www.voyagerangel.com/vamb/ - note, it may look to a non-member like nothing's going on there but there's a very nice and active forum for Voyager fans there once you join it.
Last edited by marchale on Tue Aug 23, 2011 3:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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