A strange thought...

[justTripn]

All of Star Trek canon and all of world history is allowed for this discussion. LOL . . .

[Distracted]

Another thing one needs to consider is the definition of a successful society. Some things I've read portray Vulcans as on the road to extinction due to their low birth rate and societal stagnation. Subjective morality aside, one could consider Romulans the more successful culture because the Romulan Empire is growing in numbers and influence while the Vulcans are declining.

[justTripn]

Hmm . . . good point.

[honeybee]

I see Vulcans as the more moral society, from a humanist/federation standpoint. They have their flaws, but their adherence to logic prevents them from becoming like Romulans - aggressive, domineering, imperialistic and dangerous. Surak gave the Vulcans a path that protected them from becoming like the Romulans, who I believe are not a stable society and its probably only good to be one at the highest echelons.

In my story, the "good" Romulan is bewildered when Hoshi expresses concern for a Reman. He would treat pet dog better than a Reman, because that's how he has been raised. He eventually starts to be drawn to humans because of their empathy and compassion, things that his people think of as weaknesses.

I like to think of Vulcans as a successful society, in their own way. But I also think they benefited from their contact with humans in the long run - as we saw in all the series.

[WarpGirl]

OK Got cake, ready to debate. Now I will grant that Vulcans in ENT era have some major screw-ups absolutely! (Andorian conflicts anyone?) I'm not saying they are a perfect society. BUT The whole heresy thing isn't really Vulcan, they were being infiltrated by Romulans. So a good portion of what we saw in Vulcan society during that time is not truly Surak's doing. I'm going to post some stuff from the episode in TOS when Spock meets "Surak" you know the one... The Savage Curtain

From Memory Alpha again... No suing please! "Live long and prosper, image of Surak; father of all we now hold true."
"The, uh – image of Surak read in your face what is in your mind, Spock."
"As I turned, and my eyes beheld you, I displayed emotion... I ask forgiveness."
"The cause was more than sufficient... let us speak no further of it."

- Spock and "Surak"

"I am pleased to see that we have differences. May we together become greater than the sum of both of us."

- "Surak"

OK so far he's acknowlged that Spock does indeed feel emotions and not just because he's half human, and he's cool with that. So far it doesn't seem to me that Vulcans are supposed to be distainful, but they are supposed to be polite and not berate other Vulcans who slip up when they do. Yes cultural mores change during thousands of years, but we are talking about Surak and his teachings. Not interpitations. Now lets move on to "The Vulcan Arc" and just ignore Archer. Focus on Surak's Katra...

OK here's the dialog from Cakoteya.net... SURAK: War is taking its toll. Vulcan is tearing itself apart.
ARCHER: Who are you?
SURAK: You know who I am, Captain. So much death. Hard to believe this will become known as the Time of Awakening.
ARCHER: That was eighteen hundred years ago. This doesn't feel like a dream.
SURAK: You're seeing the past through my eyes.
ARCHER: Syrran did something to me before he died.
SURAK: He chose you. You don't trust Vulcans, Captain. And, given your experiences with them, I can't say I blame you. The culture you've come to know isn't the one I helped to create. My people have strayed, and someone must restore them to the path.
ARCHER: You've got the wrong man.
SURAK: Sorry, Captain. There's an Earth expression, We're stuck with each other. Don't fight what's been given to you. Open your mind and your heart and the way will become clear.

ARCHER: Surak.
SURAK: Good to see you again, Captain. My appearance must be quite disconcerting. I apologise.
ARCHER: Radiation sickness?
SURAK: We're paying a heavy price for our foolishness. Logic has not won this day, but this day won't last forever. Logic is at the heart of every Vulcan. Even as the ashes fall, my people are discovering a new way. You can accomplish what Syrran could not.
ARCHER: But Syrran
SURAK: Was a Vulcan, and you're human. Which means you are untouched by a culture that can no longer see its own imminent destruction. We cannot let what happened to the Vulcans of my time take place again. Find what my people have lost. Find the Kir'Shara.

So you see in the ENT era Surak didn't intend for Vulcan society in the ENT era, to be the way it was. No freedom of speech, banishment for the slightest deviation of what "the establishment" considered the following of Surak's path. So to blame it all on poor Surak is just not fair.

As we go into the future yes there are still many ways where Vulcans are unexcepting of many things. Sarek, Spock, Tuvok, even Saavik (although half Romulan) had their difficulties. And yes pressure to conform to the majority of society was still strong. But it is like that in EVERY society. No Vulcans aren't perfect, but I'd say they're a hell of a lot better than Romulans. Vulcans don't execute entire families for going against the state.

Dang router cut off on me again, so good points ladies.

[justTripn]

You too!

[WarpGirl]

Coming from you that's the best compliment I've had all week!