Starfleet: Military Or Not?

[Alelou]

SilverBullet, apology accepted.

As far as BnB goes, I honestly don't know where I did the dumping on him, that wasn't at least normal back and forth discussion, something he never seemed too shy about. So I'm sorry he feels that way, but mostly I'm puzzled.

I can say I'm quite glad NOT to be an admin or moderator dealing with any of these fraught feelings anymore (including my own).

Anyway, if I'm the only reason for leaving, tell BnB I'll be gone this fall anyway. I'll have too much other crap to do.

[WarpGirl]

IT TOOK YOU LONG ENOUGH Elessar!!!! Do you have any idea how long I've been waiting for you to say something that made sense? DANG! You did not let me down.

I could go on and on. There are way too many officers, and they do too much. Enlistedmen practically don't exist in the show. Everyone's an Ensign or a Lieutenant. In reality, the bridge would be full of senior enlisted noncommissioned officers and the COs would be in their wardrooms writing reports. You would have officers in Engineering because the academic positions aboard naval vessels like nuclear carriers and subs are always officers with educations in nuclear engineering, physics or marine engineering... but there's a freakin Boatswain's Mate driving the thing. Not a Lieutenant.

It's a fun show but in this regard it's a joke. It's like learning how airplanes work, don't do it, it will ruin the experience. (Honestly I'm afraid to fly now).

Edit: I forgot something big that always bothered me:

The military is obsessive about one thing: security. Security on starships is a joke. Do ou have any idea how many Starfleet personnel have died on screen due to surprise boardings of enemy troops or aliens? Probably including Wolf 359, in the thousands. How many times does it take to learn to carry a sidearm? Especially in a combat zone. The modern day analog to walking around on a starship in hostile territory without a sidearm would be like walking around a market in Ramadi without a rifle. You're just asking to get shot.

This is especially unforgivable when THEY KNOW THEY ARE AT WAR. The Dominion War is a prime example. Someone might say about every other circumstance "Well they're a peaceful organization they don't want everyone onboard feeling like its a warship." Well how can they argue about that during war?! They ARE a warship during war. They should carry sidearms. There should be weapons lockers on every deck.

First Contact did a decent job of portraying Starfleet weaponry and security and tactical capabilities more proficiently. But that's just because Picard was a badass and he wasn't going to screw around with the Borg. But it wouldn't take one exceptionally badass Captain to actually THINK of these things in an organization that is supposed to be like 270 years old by this time. They would have already been at war with the Romulans, the Klingons, the Legarans, the First Federation, god knows who else. They would have figured this crap out by then. And in 2151, less than 100 yrs after the world's most catastrophically ravaging war, you can guarantee they would still be too nervous about armed conflict to send their MOST EXPENSIVE AND SOPHISTICATED ship into unknown territory with all of the security holes they have. I'm not suggesting the ship be armed to the teeth, I'm just talking about common sense and good security practices.

Seriously, you could write a batch file in DOS that would link the sensors and say, if a ship not broadcasting an identification beacon enters sensor range, charge hull plating and alert the captain. But no, you have to wait for some damn Ensign to notice. It's stupid. Very basic security realities of a warship are not followed.

This is why I started this whole thread to begin with. It's obvious that Starfleeet while modeled on a military structure, is hardly a proper Military. Really in reality there is SO much more paperwork. But then again even shows about the Military screw up. JAG and NCIS are fun, but boy do they get a lot wrong. Anyway My whole thing is the history, I don't think Starfleet became a military branch until the Federation is formed, but the conversion began with the Xindi. It pretty much says so in the first three episodes of season 3. But I'm glad we finally got these kinds of observations.

PS Malcolm tried to tighten things up, but he always got shot down. Poor Malcolm.

[Elessar]

I would actually think that if anything, Starfleet would become less militaristic with the founding of the Federation, and here's why.

Nationalism is central to the inherently exclusionary, territoriality that a proper military is usually characterized by. This is almost without a doubt with NATO and in particularly U.N. peacekeeping forces take such flak about being ineffective, because there isn't the same sense of of common lineage and common roots to the member powers and by consequence the member soldiers. Now, it's a little different because NATO/U.N. isn't a geographical body of people, a country... But neither is 'The Federation'. In the very beginning of the Federation, all these member races like Vulcan, Tellar, etc, wouldn't just automatically feel connected to one another, feel like family and brothers. Like "one of their own" was under attack. Today if an allied country of the United States is attacked, say Russia launches a missile strike against England, we would be outraged, but it would be decidedly different than if a group of 25 American tourists were killed in a guerrilla attack in Peru. Because they're our own, whereas England are just "our friends".

A really good historical example of this transition could be seen by going back into the time before all of the States were admitted to the union. Indian attacks (no offense to anyone, I'm not taking a position on the Native American/Euro thing, just using an example) on settlers in the far West, while frightening and possibly heart-wrenching to people back east, they didn't feel like it was 'one of their own' being attacked. Virginians were Virginians, and it took awhile for members of the 13 colonies to feel at all like they were all Americans. This would have been a time before an attack on one State was an attack on all. This, I think, is what the Federation would be like in the beginning, only even more significant, because the "Human vs Vulcan" delineation is much more fundamental than "I'm from Virginia and you're from Massachusetts" distinction. It would take awhile for a human member of the Federation to look at a Vulcan and think of him as one of his own. Like, I'd say a couple hundred years, just like for us.

That's why at first, I would think 'The Federation' wouldn't be very military. I mean, for one, the Vulcans detest military aggression and their technological superiority would make them an influential power.

I mean the middle step between my example of the States in the early union and the Federation... is the U.N. or some similar body actually becoming a sovereign military power, where all the member countries yield up their military forces to that. Can you imagine? I can't imagine us putting American troops under foreign command. We do sort of in NATO... but in that scenario they're actually on NATO duty. It's hard to imagine us yielding up military control to a larger group, yet, we would certainly expect other member nations (planets) to.

[WarpGirl]

Oh you're totally right. But after the founding of the Federation it is OFFICIAL there is actual confirmation that Starfleet is a military branch. I guess I mean that it's finally on paper. (OK in a PADD or database) They always say that something becomes "real" when it's written down. Personally I think nationalism is a scourge on humanity. But humanity sure can't fix it.

[Aquarius]

Sorry, I don't want to step on anyone's toes here, but is this thread really the time and place for such a discussion? If you have a personal problem with someone, maybe you should take it up with them via Private Message, to spare everyone else having to read your dirty laundry when they're trying to discuss the topic at hand. Failing that, you can always ask an admin to intervene. If your problem is with an admin, you can always appeal to another admin for help.

And if you don't like it here and don't plan to come back, there's no reason to announce to everyone that you're taking your ball and going home; just go play in whatever sandbox does make you happy and leave it at that.

In the meantime, the next post had better be about Starfleet's military-ness, or lack thereof.

Thank you.

ETA: sorry, WarpGirl. You WERE the next poster, and it WAS about Starfleet's military-ness. Somehow I missed that. Just wanted to acknowledge that and thank you personally for rerailing this particular train.

[WarpGirl]

No Problem.

[Elessar]

Oh we were back on track... Anyone else got anything about starfleet/military?

[WarpGirl]

Only this if we're defining a Military by a chain of command, uniforms, and baring arms... Then what the heack is a police force? Heck most fireman have all three requirements. That confuses me a little. There is a ranking system in both.

[Kevin Thomas Riley]

Military = waging wars and defending your homeland.

It doesn't matter if they screwed up a lot about how a proper military works in Star Trek (or even other shows such as JAG). It's still a militay, albeit not one working with the desired efficiency.

As for the lack of non-coms (or at least that there seems to be so few of them), well, there are some military forces today that don't have non-coms. Look at Russia for example. The non-com ranks are filled with draftees. We have the same system in Sweden, or had. Only last year we began to switch back to have regularly employed NCOs and just this week we abolished the draft. And due to our labour laws, we also have a very top heavy officer corps - a lot of chiefs but fewer Indians, i.e. a lot more Majors than 2nd Lieutenants for example.

[WarpGirl]

But Starfleet wasn't formed to wage wars or defend the homeland. In fact until the Xindi there was no more war. So doesn't that prove the point that Starfleet wasn't military until the Xindi, and it wasn't officially documented until the Federation was formed?

[Kevin Thomas Riley]

We don't really know if there was any wars or not prior to the Xindi attack. What we do know is that Starfleet prior to this engagement was a force designed to, among other things, fighting hostiles. That's why they were armed and that's why they were sent into the Expanse. Starfleet was designed not just to explore, but to defend, much like any old navy of times past.

Sweden hasn't been at war for 200 years, and that's longer than between First Contact and the ENT era, but we still keep a military.

Given how unknown things were out there, it's only prudent of Earth to have a defence force, should things like the Xindi attack happen.

[Silverbullet]

Sweden hasn't had a war in 200 years but the Swedes do know History.

european history before those two hundred years ws one strife after another. Sweden was in the middle of some of them as defender or aggresor. Sweden had conquered, been conquered. got mixed up in a religous War on the side of the Protestants. They learned the hard way.

Swedish History is very interesting.

Taking Sweden as an anology, Starfleet would have amilitary if for no onther reason than "Be Prepared."

Entrprise was going into the unkown, to them. It was prudent to send a military exploration
ship.

[Kevin Thomas Riley]

european history before those two hundred years ws one strife after another. Sweden was in the middle of some of them as defender or aggresor. Sweden had conquered, been conquered. got mixed up in a religous War on the side of the Protestants. They learned the hard way.

All true, except that we have never really been conquered by anybody. We have lost some of our territories, like Finland to the Russians 200 years ago, but never Sweden proper. In the late middle ages we were part of the Union of Kalmar, which had a Danish sovereign, but we and our nobles often ruled ourselves anyway, and we often fought the Danes until Gustav Vasa finally expelled them and was made king on June 6th (or National Day) 1532.

Taking Sweden as an anology, Starfleet would have amilitary if for no onther reason than "Be Prepared."

Precisley. Earth already knew that there were hostiles out there. There were pirates preying on cargo ships for example. Before the NX series, Starfleet had built other warships such as the Neptune class (seen in The Expanse for example).

Even the very name StarFLEET conjures up images of a navy.

[WarpGirl]

I seem too remember either Archer or Forrest saying that war had stopped by Cochrane's flight. I'm not sure wich episode sometime in seasons 1&2. But First Contact painted a different picture. Sometimes Trek is confusing. And I always assumed that Starfleet was armed simply because of the Unknown. You wouldn't go into a dangerous enviornment without protection would you? That doesn't make you a soldier.

I never said that Starfleet wasn't modeled after the Navy. Everyone knows it was, I'm just saying it wasn't an official military branch in the ENT era.

[Silverbullet]

KTR, thank you for clearing up a few points:

When I was in Denmark a few times I was always shown varous spots where the Danes and Swedes fought. Seems like there had been a fair amount of sibling rivalry.

I recall one female saying with great pride; "ths is where we stopped the Swedes"

I am quarter Swede BTW my Grandfather immigrated from Sweden. My favorite area in Europe is scandinavia. Also am half Irish so I guess I have some Viking blood from that half. Vikings having been in Ireland for a while and mixed in with the local poulace.

Starfleet. Yes, Naval. fleet brings to mind SHIPS. Naval Ships. Unless you are thinking of a fishing fleet and i don't believe Starfleet brings that to mind.

Military , Warpgirl, Military.