Starfleet: Military Or Not?

[WarpGirl]

I thought they were a part of Starfleet. Granted when I looked it up it was 1:30AM. What did I miss?

[Kevin Thomas Riley]

The relationship between Starfleet and the UESPA has never been made very clear in canon. But in my mind UESPA would fit the NASA bill nicely.

My own personal theory is that Starfleet was an extension that branched off from UEASPA sometime prior to the ENT era (probably in the beginning of the 22nd century; see my FAQ quote). The UESPA still exists, and it does into TOS times since its even mentioned there.

I can picture UESPA "contracting" Starfleet for some deep space assignments since they lack the necessary hardware - like Warp 5 capable vessels. In fact, it would've made more sense on ENT if the science personnel aboard the NX-01 had been civilian UESPA scientists who tagged along. It would also have made T'Pol's position as head of the science department (but not the XO position) more reasonable.

[WarpGirl]

Well I suppose you can cook up any theory. Still sticking with canon though. Oh God please just don't let this ruin my drastic rebel reputation.

[Silverbullet]

Last word on this.

Starfleet was military. End of discussion.

However. the Beebs so screwed up Enterprise that it is impossible to determine what enterprise was at all.

The beebs were so divorced from reality that they should have been commited.

AGain Bragga et. al. Was determined to have a clone of TOS. That meant a Spock (T-Pol) First Officer/science Officer Captain (Archer) Kirk, Foil for spock McCoy (Trip). It simplly didn't work . Spock ws supposed to be a male buddy type to kirk at ties a little Male bonding. T-Pol could not fill that role. she was a female and there would always be the sexual thing hanging there.

But the BeeBs tried like Hell for two seasons.

In reality enterprise was amilitary Ship with a military Crew. but in the BeeBs feeble little minds it wasn't and it was when they needed to make it military.

So, Warpgirl you are right Enterprise ws not military. It was not NASa either. Damned if I
really know what it is now. I had thought I did until this discussion over several threads started about being or not being military.

I am if nothng else a literalist. I can suspend my disbelief at times but when a series depicts itself in a certain way and then contradicts itself I can no lnger go along with it.

Why shoud I not suspend my disbelief in a SCIFI TV series? Becasue I have seen things come to pass that had I said would exist in 1950 I would have ben locked up in a rubber room: Cell phones, Home computers, the Internet, Direct dialing around the world, Satellites, Digital cameras, ATM's, Bank Cards, Etc. things you take for granted was SciFi when I was a young lad in my very early teens. so, I don't feel a need to suspend my disbelief and I do need to expect reality from ScieFi Series. Not in Every thing but I have a sneaking hunch that much of what is depicted will come to pass.

But talking Horses, Cats or any other animals, Genies in a bottle I can suspend my disdbelief because I know that they are impossible.

Anyone know what in Hell I a talking about.

[WarpGirl]

Nope I am completely confused.

[Kevin Thomas Riley]

Well I suppose you can cook up any theory. Still sticking with canon though.

It's not just a matter of "cooking up" any theory. It's trying to make sense of contradictions and inconsistencies in an informed and plausible manner. Since canon is sometimes ripe with contradictions and inconsistencies, that's what many fans, such as yours truly, do.

If someone on the show (or off) says or implies that Starfleet isn't a military, I feel it's the same as if they'd say "Spock has no pointed ears". They may have said it, but it's nonsensical and false, canon or not.

[WarpGirl]

Now now, you know I adore your conclusions. I'm just saying that you can come up with almost anything for this one. We all like to cheat. Even canon purists. But this a REALLY cheating.

[Alelou]

However. the Beebs so screwed up Enterprise that it is impossible to determine what enterprise was at all.

The beebs were so divorced from reality that they should have been commited.

You know, SilverBullet, reading your posts can be so unpleasant because they are so often laden with these vitriolic attacks on real people you don't know from Adam. (Somewhere else today you suggested Bakula was purposely flubbing takes to grope Blalock, a filthy supposition about a man widely reputed to be a gentleman.)

I know you feel perfectly entitled to pass judgment, and to some extent we all do that as we discuss this show, but I think these particularly ad hominem attacks are bringing down the tone of these boards. I think I'm going to do my best to just skip over your entries from now on, myself.

[Silverbullet]

My apologies if I have offended you. Not my intention.

i will take what you say to heart and promise to be more circumspect in Future

I hope my apology fimds merit in your eyes..

[Elessar]

They are very clearly military, otherwise they wouldn't bother with things like military ranks. They wouldn't have a "captain"...they'd have a "director" or "boss" or "Vice President in charge of Seeking Out New Life and New Civilizations" or somesuch.

Merchant Marines have ranks and they're not military.

Last word on this.

Starfleet was military. End of discussion.

However. the Beebs so screwed up Enterprise that it is impossible to determine what enterprise was at all.

The beebs were so divorced from reality that they should have been commited.

AGain Bragga et. al. Was determined to have a clone of TOS. That meant a Spock (T-Pol) First Officer/science Officer Captain (Archer) Kirk, Foil for spock McCoy (Trip). It simplly didn't work . Spock ws supposed to be a male buddy type to kirk at ties a little Male bonding. T-Pol could not fill that role. she was a female and there would always be the sexual thing hanging there.

But the BeeBs tried like Hell for two seasons.

In reality enterprise was amilitary Ship with a military Crew. but in the BeeBs feeble little minds it wasn't and it was when they needed to make it military.

So, Warpgirl you are right Enterprise ws not military. It was not NASa either. Damned if I
really know what it is now. I had thought I did until this discussion over several threads started about being or not being military.

In my opinion, it should have been a military ship, a military crew.... even if you take (as a viewer) to heart the fact that by TNG time period Starfleet was very sterile and nonmilitant, I think one of the hallmarks of a show like Enterprise was supposed to be its grittiness, its realism. It's closeness to home. TODAY, a ship like Enterprise, of that level of importance and sophistication and danger out in space, would be military. An organization like Starfleet, its very purpose, it only makes sense as a branch of the military -- this is strictly my opinion. I think to be enraged or offended by this suggestion (not suggesting anyone is, but there are a lot of hot-blooded arguments over this idea), suggests that there's something inherently wrong or inherently aggressive and immoral about "military" in general. Naturally, it is going to be my position that such a suggestion is ludicrous and historically myopic when taking into account the atrocities that militaries of modern countries have prevented and stopped. To suggest Starfleet "shouldn't be a military organization" is to suggest a predetermined negative definition of "military". It's completely conceivable that because it's a multinational organization, it's more apt to look at it like NATO than the U.S. military, since it seems to be the U.S. military in particular that draws the ire of the anti-military crowd.

Sorry, but getting back to our point... Is Enterprise military? As I said, I think it should be, but I also believe indelibly that it wasn't. Anyone who has been in the military (for more than a month and you have me beat ) or been exposed to it on a daily basis in some other way, say through a marriage, would agree with me. The so-called 'protocol' on a Starship is a joke compared to military courtesy & protocol. BSG is a heck of a lot closer, the only difference is in BSG things get kinda crazy and they just let it happen because, well, after all, humanity was nearly wiped out. SG1's shipboard military protocol, or even offworld military protocol, is a joke. Then again it is the Chairforce, no offense, CX .

It also goes further than just protocol. In terms of leadership structure, in terms of formality, in terms of who does what... it's a make believe fudging of military ranks into a group of people acting nothing like a military. It's like going to a Model U.N. conference and seeing people call each other "delegate" and seeing them yield the floor to the speaker and assume based on that that this is THE REAL U.N. There's a very thin veil in front of it with the general hue of what it is, but beyond the uniforms, the insignia, the ranks... nothing else about it is REALLY anything like the military. It's as much like the military as the average civilian knows about the military, which doesn't make it military. What frustrates the hell out of me about it was that it wasn't even supposed to be military in Roddenburry's vision, regardless of whether you agree with it. So here you have what was not originally intended to be a military organization... put together like it's copying a military organization... but badly. It's ridiculous. I guess the reason is, he wanted it to be more fuddy duddy and warm-fuzzy-feeling than something like nuBSG. I mean, there are a lot of things I love about Trek -- but the way it COMPLETELY bludgeons the attempt at military culture is NOT one of them.

[WarpGirl]

IT TOOK YOU LONG ENOUGH Elessar!!!! Do you have any idea how long I've been waiting for you to say something that made sense? DANG! You did not let me down.

[Elessar]

IT TOOK YOU LONG ENOUGH Elessar!!!! Do you have any idea how long I've been waiting for you to say something that made sense? DANG! You did not let me down.

I could go on and on. There are way too many officers, and they do too much. Enlistedmen practically don't exist in the show. Everyone's an Ensign or a Lieutenant. In reality, the bridge would be full of senior enlisted noncommissioned officers and the COs would be in their wardrooms writing reports. You would have officers in Engineering because the academic positions aboard naval vessels like nuclear carriers and subs are always officers with educations in nuclear engineering, physics or marine engineering... but there's a freakin Boatswain's Mate driving the thing. Not a Lieutenant.

It's a fun show but in this regard it's a joke. It's like learning how airplanes work, don't do it, it will ruin the experience. (Honestly I'm afraid to fly now).

Edit: I forgot something big that always bothered me:

The military is obsessive about one thing: security. Security on starships is a joke. Do ou have any idea how many Starfleet personnel have died on screen due to surprise boardings of enemy troops or aliens? Probably including Wolf 359, in the thousands. How many times does it take to learn to carry a sidearm? Especially in a combat zone. The modern day analog to walking around on a starship in hostile territory without a sidearm would be like walking around a market in Ramadi without a rifle. You're just asking to get shot.

This is especially unforgivable when THEY KNOW THEY ARE AT WAR. The Dominion War is a prime example. Someone might say about every other circumstance "Well they're a peaceful organization they don't want everyone onboard feeling like its a warship." Well how can they argue about that during war?! They ARE a warship during war. They should carry sidearms. There should be weapons lockers on every deck.

First Contact did a decent job of portraying Starfleet weaponry and security and tactical capabilities more proficiently. But that's just because Picard was a badass and he wasn't going to screw around with the Borg. But it wouldn't take one exceptionally badass Captain to actually THINK of these things in an organization that is supposed to be like 270 years old by this time. They would have already been at war with the Romulans, the Klingons, the Legarans, the First Federation, god knows who else. They would have figured this crap out by then. And in 2151, less than 100 yrs after the world's most catastrophically ravaging war, you can guarantee they would still be too nervous about armed conflict to send their MOST EXPENSIVE AND SOPHISTICATED ship into unknown territory with all of the security holes they have. I'm not suggesting the ship be armed to the teeth, I'm just talking about common sense and good security practices.

Seriously, you could write a batch file in DOS that would link the sensors and say, if a ship not broadcasting an identification beacon enters sensor range, charge hull plating and alert the captain. But no, you have to wait for some damn Ensign to notice. It's stupid. Very basic security realities of a warship are not followed.

[blacknblue]

However. the Beebs so screwed up Enterprise that it is impossible to determine what enterprise was at all.

The beebs were so divorced from reality that they should have been commited.

You know, SilverBullet, reading your posts can be so unpleasant because they are so often laden with these vitriolic attacks on real people you don't know from Adam. (Somewhere else today you suggested Bakula was purposely flubbing takes to grope Blalock, a filthy supposition about a man widely reputed to be a gentleman.)

I know you feel perfectly entitled to pass judgment, and to some extent we all do that as we discuss this show, but I think these particularly ad hominem attacks are bringing down the tone of these boards. I think I'm going to do my best to just skip over your entries from now on, myself.

A valid point, Alelou. Your ongoing pattern of unleashing your judgment on me was certainly a strong motivating factor in my decision to cease posting on this board. Not the only factor by any means, but certainly one of the major ones. I got tired of being called names, quite frankly.

I do, or until now I did, still occasionally lurk here. I stopped in to browse this thread because the title caught my attention. Rather than offer an opinion and provoke anyone, I offer this definition, cut and pasted from dictionary.com:

mil·i·tar·y (mĭl'ĭ-těr'ē)
adj.

1. Of, relating to, or characteristic of members of the armed forces: a military bearing; military attire.
2. Performed or supported by the armed forces: military service.
3. Of or relating to war: military operations.
4. Of or relating to land forces.

n. pl. military also mil·i·tar·ies

1. Armed forces: a country ruled by the military.
2. Members, especially officers, of an armed force.


[Middle English, from Latin mīlitāris, from mīles, mīlit-, soldier.]
mil'i·tar'i·ly (-târ'ə-lē) adv.
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2009 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

I will go away now. But for the record, I also think the Berman and Braga were completely divorced from both reality and their fan base. My opinion and I am sticking to it. The entire world is welcome to disagree with and disapprove of it if it suits them.

I have made it a point to avoid posting on this board for quite some time, specifically to avoid strife. I don't know why it struck me to post this time. If it bothers anyone, please be aware that I regret that. But when a web page that I helped start and put a lot of man-hours into getting into operation degenerates to the point that I, and others who think the way I do, dare not express our honest opinions without being called up on the carpet and castigated, sometimes I just feel like venting a bit.


I no have moderator powers here, nor do I desire them. I asked to have them removed when I decided to leave. The mods are free to edit and/or remove this post if it suits them. But if they choose to do so, I ask them to please also remove all of my writings form this site as well.

I will not return to this forum again for any reason. Peace and long life to you all.

[WarpGirl]

[Elessar]

However. the Beebs so screwed up Enterprise that it is impossible to determine what enterprise was at all.

The beebs were so divorced from reality that they should have been commited.

You know, SilverBullet, reading your posts can be so unpleasant because they are so often laden with these vitriolic attacks on real people you don't know from Adam. (Somewhere else today you suggested Bakula was purposely flubbing takes to grope Blalock, a filthy supposition about a man widely reputed to be a gentleman.)

I know you feel perfectly entitled to pass judgment, and to some extent we all do that as we discuss this show, but I think these particularly ad hominem attacks are bringing down the tone of these boards. I think I'm going to do my best to just skip over your entries from now on, myself.

A valid point, Alelou. Your ongoing pattern of unleashing your judgment on me was certainly a strong motivating factor in my decision to cease posting on this board. Not the only factor by any means, but certainly one of the major ones. I got tired of being called names, quite frankly.

I do, or until now I did, still occasionally lurk here. I stopped in to browse this thread because the title caught my attention. Rather than offer an opinion and provoke anyone, I offer this definition, cut and pasted from dictionary.com:

mil·i·tar·y (mĭl'ĭ-těr'ē)
adj.

1. Of, relating to, or characteristic of members of the armed forces: a military bearing; military attire.
2. Performed or supported by the armed forces: military service.
3. Of or relating to war: military operations.
4. Of or relating to land forces.

n. pl. military also mil·i·tar·ies

1. Armed forces: a country ruled by the military.
2. Members, especially officers, of an armed force.


[Middle English, from Latin mīlitāris, from mīles, mīlit-, soldier.]
mil'i·tar'i·ly (-târ'ə-lē) adv.
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2009 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

I will go away now. But for the record, I also think the Berman and Braga were completely divorced from both reality and their fan base. My opinion and I am sticking to it. The entire world is welcome to disagree with and disapprove of it if it suits them.

I have made it a point to avoid posting on this board for quite some time, specifically to avoid strife. I don't know why it struck me to post this time. If it bothers anyone, please be aware that I regret that.

I no have moderator powers here, nor do I desire them. I asked to have them removed when I decided to leave. The mods are free to edit and/or remove this post if it suits them. But if they choose to do so, I ask them to please also remove all of my writings form this site as well.

I will not return to this forum again for any reason. Peace and long life to you all.

No one's blasting you dude, relax. No need to be so touchy. We welcome you here, always have... You know that. Especially in a thread like this. And SB apologized.

There's no reason for anyone to go castigating him any further.

But when a web page that I helped start and put a lot of man-hours into getting into operation degenerates to the point that I, and others who think the way I do, dare not express our honest opinions without being called up on the carpet and castigated, sometimes I just feel like venting a bit.

BnB I love you but quit w/ the melodrama. I don't care what people believe because this isn't a place to discuss "what you believe". We've always been clear about that.

Nothing has "degenerated" and I can name 197 people who would agree with me and about 2 other people who would agree with you.

I love you man but I'm tired of hearing this shit. This isn't Nazi Germany. Everyone's free to say whatever they want as long as it isn't an insult to someone else. As I've always said, "You're a fucking idiot" isn't an opinion.