A Hoshi and T'Pol Friendship

[Ludmila]

But Sleeping Dogs is one of my favorites. T'Pol's line about expecting the best from Hoshi because she knows Hoshi is capable of it was amazing. JB did a good job with that one.

Actually this line was in "Vox Sola". When I have time for Enterprise DVDs I am re-watching only some episodes. But I checked out now the spelling of the names of these episodes in "Star Trek 101" and was very surprised that "Sleeping Dogs" is Episode 14 and "Vox Sola" is 22. But I have frequently been considering episode "Vox Sola" as more early than "Sleeping Dogs" exactly because T'Pol voicing to Hoshi that she thinks highly of her. I supposed that was a starting point for developing their relationships.
And they communicate with each other more relaxing in "Sleeping Dogs". T'Pol even promised Hoshi to teach her some relaxation techniques on Enterprise, i.e. they would associate off-duty and develop some mutual understanding. And they with Reed are more sociable in the end of that episode.

[WarpGirl]

Thanks for the correction. I also thought Sleeping Dogs was before Vox Sola. Hmm you know something, a Vulcan especially in season one wouldn't offer to teach someone meditation if they didn't want to be helpful to someone. More likely they'd more likely tell the crewman to see the Doctor for anti-anxiety medication, or recommend someone like Hoshi go back to Earth. So I think offering meditation lessons at least indicates some willingness to have some sort of relationship. Because she really didn't have to offer. And Vulcans of this time period really don't want to share much with humans.

[Ludmila]

I also thought Sleeping Dogs was before Vox Sola.

And you was right about it. But in terms of the development of T'Pol and Hoshi relationships it was a backward step (maybe even few).

[WarpGirl]

I know it makes no sense at all. If they were going to write it as these are rivals, I'd get it. But they weren't there was nothing, just nothing. I have to admit they did it to other characters too. Like Travis. This is one of the many reasons that as a tv show, I didn't like Enterprise. On all the other Star Trek series, every character realated to the others in some way. On Enterprise, Hoshi and Travis only really interacted with Malcolm somtimes Archer. And Phlox really only interacted with Hoshi Trip T'Pol and Archer. Trip interacted the most with everyone except Travis. And T'Pol interacted the most with Archer and Trip. It wasn't really cohesive to me. No family vibes at all. Drove me nuts!

[Ludmila]

If you think about it, there is an additional inconsistence in the portrayal of Hoshi and her interactions with T'Pol. Hoshi always tries to improve her understanding of other languages and cultures (on Risa, scenes with Phlox, V'Lar, MACO). But she does not discuss anything Vulcan with T'Pol as far as I know. Hoshi does find the common ground with Vulcan V'Lar.

[Escriba]

If you think about it, there is an additional inconsistence in the portrayal of Hoshi and her interactions with T'Pol. Hoshi always tries to improve her understanding of other languages and cultures (on Risa, scenes with Phlox, V'Lar, MACO). But she does not discuss anything Vulcan with T'Pol as far as I know. Hoshi does find the common ground with Vulcan V'Lar.

Well, it's understandable when T'Pol is not always nice to Hoshi and she told her "I was instructed to speak English during this voyage, and I'd appreciate it if you'd respect that" in the first episode.

Although for what we hear in "Exile" Hoshi and T'Pol worked side by side.

I know it makes no sense at all. If they were going to write it as these are rivals, I'd get it. But they weren't there was nothing, just nothing. I have to admit they did it to other characters too. Like Travis. This is one of the many reasons that as a tv show, I didn't like Enterprise. On all the other Star Trek series, every character realated to the others in some way. On Enterprise, Hoshi and Travis only really interacted with Malcolm somtimes Archer. And Phlox really only interacted with Hoshi Trip T'Pol and Archer. Trip interacted the most with everyone except Travis. And T'Pol interacted the most with Archer and Trip. It wasn't really cohesive to me. No family vibes at all. Drove me nuts!

Sorry, but that's not true. If my memory serves me right... Phlox interacted with Travis in "Singularity" (OK, not in a good way to poor Travis ) and "Stigma." Travis interacted with Trip in "Broken Bow", "Strange New World" and "Impulse." For a good Travis & Archer episode watch "Horizon." "Sleeping Dogs" is a Malcolm, Hoshi, T'Pol episode, but also is "Affliction," in a fashion And don't forget the bonding moment between Malcolm and T'Pol in "The Council."

And there is the super moment (I call it "awesome", but there are Malcolm/Hoshi fans out there ) in "Exile":

HOSHI: It won't take long. Sir, I might not see my friends again.
(FALSE)ARCHER: I'm sure Travis will understand.
HOSHI: Travis?
(F)ARCHER: Travis and the others. They realise how important this is.
HOSHI: I was just thinking about Travis. You're a regular mind reader.

Why the hell is Travis the first person she is thinking about? *nudge, nudge, wink, wink*

[Ludmila]

Well, it's understandable when T'Pol is not always nice to Hoshi and she told her "I was instructed to speak English during this voyage, and I'd appreciate it if you'd respect that" in the first episode.

Yes, the first rough interactions. At a later date T'Pol thanks Hoshi in Vulcan. And I do not see Hoshi as a rancorous person. She would use T'Pol's warming for her knowledge thirst at least.
By the way, my two best friends (one from the high school and another from university) were girls with whom I had the serious clash in the beginning of our acquaintance.

[WarpGirl]

Escriba I'm going to be "wicked literal" right now. (thanks Sweets) First of all T'Pol wasn't being mean in Broken Bow, at least I don't think she was annoyed with Hoshi. But let's face it, both Archer and Trip, made it clear she was in hostile territory at the time. Why would she be cordial to anybody on that ship? I would be an guard too.

And while yes I am aware that there were a few scattered instances of odd character interactions. In general it was a formula, Malcolm/Travis/Hoshi, T'Pol/Trip/Archer, Trip/Malcolm, Phlox/Everyone (except not), Archer/Everyone (except not). It was screwy!

Exile Hoshi/Travis siblings, I'm sorry I see no sexual tension there, none. Pineapple birthday cake however...

[Escriba]

Escriba I'm going to be "wicked literal" right now. (thanks Sweets) First of all T'Pol wasn't being mean in Broken Bow, at least I don't think she was annoyed with Hoshi. But let's face it, both Archer and Trip, made it clear she was in hostile territory at the time. Why would she be cordial to anybody on that ship? I would be an guard too.

I didn't say T'Pol didn't have her reasons, what I said is that it's not surprise if Hoshi didn't try to ask T'Pol about Vulcan culture or try to learn from her when T'Pol so directly cut that chance.

Yes, the first rough interactions. At a later date T'Pol thanks Hoshi in Vulcan. And I do not see Hoshi as a rancorous person. She would use T'Pol's warming for her knowledge thirst at least.

I think she tried, but as we see in "Fallen Hero", T'Pol was quite "rude" when dealing about her culture with Hoshi. T'Pol is very reserved, even by Vulcan standards, I think she's even shy (if a Vulcan can be one), so it's difficult for her to deal with new people. And Hoshi isn't that open. She's very nice if somebody reaches to her, but I also think that if she sees somebody with a negative behavior towards her, she doesn't make an effort to try to get on well with that person.

Exile Hoshi/Travis siblings, I'm sorry I see no sexual tension there, none. Pineapple birthday cake however...

And after that the first person Hoshi thinks of is Travis? How rude... That's why it's a big moment for me.

[WarpGirl]

OK yes I agree that T'Pol is shy. But we also have to remember that she's also in "hostile territory" she doesn't know anything about Hoshi as a person, and Archer's made it pretty clear he hates Vulcans (at the time) and Hoshi is almost like his teacher's pet. She is only 22 at Enterprise's launch. While she knows a lot about alien cultures it doesn't necessarily mean she's not influenced by the general tension between Starfleet and the VHC. Because let's face it the two groups aren't exactly cordial. In any case I'm not certain T'Pol was deliberately being rude. There were a couple of times where Hoshi was less than courteous and she knew it. But like I said I don't think any of these snafus were severe enough to completely curtail a friendship from forming.

About Travis I can understand why Hoshi would think of her "brother" before Malcolm even if she is attracted to him. Malcolm is not the type of person to be obvious about it. Where as Travis is pretty open about everything. What little there is of him.

[Escriba]

Again, I'm not blaming T'Pol. When I said "rude" it was between parenthesis on purpose, because it's rude from the Human point of view, but perfectly normal from the Vulcan point of view.

And yes, the snafus can be enough to cut any possible friendship T'Pol and Hoshi could have if somebody doesn't meddle (Trip anyone?), because their character doesn't allow them to ask the other part. If Hoshi were bolder, she could said "Do you have any problem with me? You're being rude" and then T'Pol would explain that no, that wasn't her intention. T'Pol, on the other hand, will never be the first to approach people.

For example, Hoshi had not problems with V'Lar, but it was the Vulcan the one to get closer to her, not the other way around.

[WarpGirl]

Eeek did I sound snappy? I didn't mean too honest. Hmm I suppose it is a pickle, T'Pol needs someone to reach out to her, Hoshi needs someone to reach out to her... Boy they have more in common then I thought. Still T'Pol did offer to teach Hoshi meditation, privately, doesn't that count for anything? Also she complimented Hoshi as well during Vox Sola. SO why the heck sisn't the writers ever pick up on that? I mean Hoshi saw T'Pol's very sexy dreams, that's something as well. OK I'm officially crazy.

[Aikiweezie]

I'm chiming in on this waaaaay late, but I agree, friendly interraction between T'Pol and Hoshi would have added something to the show. Missed opportunity.

[WarpGirl]

It made no sense to me. 7of9 and B'Elanna not getting along yeah that made sense. NOTHING with T'Pol and Hoshi made no sense.

[Aquarius]

I'm going to play devil's advocate here, a bit, and suggest that...

1) T'Pol is Hoshi's department head and her immediate boss (I assume, since Hoshi wears science stripes, not ops stripes). I just don't think you tend to relax around and befriend the senior officer you report to. Especially if you already notice tension between her and the other senior officers, especially the captain, who is the one person you already know, the man who recruited you into your post.

2) They depict A LOT of early tension between the two, not helped by T'Pol's lack of diplomacy and Hoshi's insecurity.

3) In Season 4 I think we got to see some potential for a T'Pol and Hoshi friendship, but I think those three senior officers were a pretty tight-knit little group and Hoshi just wasn't part of it. That's not even counting Trip and T'Pol. I think it made perfect sense that you occasionally saw Malcolm, Hoshi and Travis hanging out together in a more friendly, relaxed way.

4) It's too bad we lost Liz Cutler. I agree that there really weren't enough female characters of note on that show -- and they sure used her a lot, considering that she wasn't a major character. Clearly there was a need for a character like her. She would have been a better choice as a friend for Hoshi. I wish they had come up with another woman in a role like that.

I'm just coming back into this discussion, but I dove in because I have some time to kill while my classmates finish a quiz. I just wanted to say I agree with this, especially due to Alelou's first point. Hoshi's opinion about T'Pol might have relaxed about her--as a boss--but I'm not sure they'd ever be "friends". They'd have to share something pretty catastrophic together, or at least something no one else would have a frame of reference for, that would bring them closer together, I think, which is often serves as the foundation for friendships that would otherwise be unlikely. (IE, "war buddies")

Cutler was also interesting because she was trying to get a sense of the "Vulcan experience".