A Hoshi and T'Pol Friendship

[WarpGirl]

It's not that I don't agree but I'm just not convinced they haven't shared those experiences.

[panyasan]

Cutler was also interesting because she was trying to get a sense of the "Vulcan experience".

Exactly. Hoshi wasn't interested at all in T'Pol. Not even to learn more about Vulcan or Vulcans from her. Not that's a bad thing per se, just stating a fact. I don't buy into the argument that Hoshi and T'Pol must have something because of all the men they were surrounded with. I got the feeling Hoshi did have female friends - but she didn't look for friendship with T'Pol.

[WarpGirl]

If they were on a ship the size of Enterprise D I'd agree. But the crew compliment is 83 people. And 1/3rd of them are women. So getting out my calculator... aproximently 23 women with which to bond with. 23 is a very limited social pool. And I'm supposed to believe that the only people on Enterprise 1 T'Pol will socialize with are Trip, Archer, and Phlox I don't think so. However Liz Cutler was after a Vulcan experience, not to mention a Denabulan one. I don't think her interest was in T'Pol a person, but in T'Pol a Vulcan

[Aquarius]

There are plenty of people I know who don't have many friends...some by choice, some because that's the way it just kind of worked out for them. In any case, there ARE human beings who just aren't that interested in socializing or having a lot of friends, so to me it wouldn't be such a stretch for a Vulcan to be that way. Furthermore, it's quite possible that T'Pol sees it mostly as a job, and frankly, not everyone at work wants to be your friend. You need to functionally get along, but you're not gonna be buds. There is only one person at my job I hang out with outside of work, so she is the only coworker I'd define as a "friend."

T'Pol doesn't strike me as the type who comes to work looking to make friends. She may eventually mellow enough that she'd consider a lot of them "good acquaintances," but her very nature would keep her trusted circle small. For that reason it makes sense to me that yes, most of her socializing would be limited to Archer, Phlox, and Trip. Another reason is--and I'm saying this as a chick myself--human women tend to be much more prone to drama, so I can see someone like T'Pol preferring the company of men. I get it. I had the fewest headaches at work when I worked for Radio Shack, surrounded mostly by men.

[WarpGirl]

OK I think that I wasn't clear at all so I'm going to try and fix that...

1. I'm not saying that T'Pol would actively look for any friendships. That's just not her and it has nothing to do with her being Vulcan. Just look at V'Lar and 4th season Soval. Her close relationships with Trip Archer and Phlox were partly persistence on the guys' parts and partly circumstances.

2. Yes I am very well aware that some women find relationships with other women very difficult. I myself only have 2 female friends, the rest of my relationships with women are family, or ladies in my congregation that treat me like a daughter or granddaughter. Believe me I get it. I have far more male friends.

3. My point is from what I have seen of the show, Hoshi and T'Pol have a lot in common, they're both introverted, out of their comfort zones, adventurous, and the defy even their own expectations for themselves. Because of that I think that the show could have developed a compelling relationship. Even if it is only professional. My objection is they did nothing.

4. Finally I have to say with regard how ENT developed stories around female characters I am sorely disappointed. The two main female characters weren't shown to their best advantages often and with the exception of V'Lar the "guest" female characters mostly were villians or people to flirt with the boys. After VOY with 3 strong female characters with strong stories, I was let down.

All I'm saying is that I see a LOT of missed oppertunity, with both Hoshi and T'Pol. Hoshi got ignored, and T'Pol was the beautiful love interest, when she wasn't messed up, or helping Archer save the day as a sidekick.

[Kevin Thomas Riley]

Well, if there are about 23 other female crew members on board, why can't Hoshi pick a friendship with any of them if T'Pol for whatever reason isn't "available"? She could be friends with, say, Anna Hess or someone...

[WarpGirl]

Not saying she couldn't that's part of the problem aside from a lunch with Liz Cutler we never saw Hoshi and T'Pol interact with many women. They both interacted with V'Lar, in terms that could be considered friendly. But I only remember seeing Hoshi being friendly with Phlox's wife, and most of the other female guests were Villianesses or the alien babe of the week, for Trip and/or Archer. That makes no sense to me at all.

Now to keep production costs low the practical thing to do would have Hoshi and T'Pol interact. They could have kept it antagonistic, professional, friendly... Whatever! The thing is they ignored it and ignored a whole dynamic that could have added to the show. Personally, I find it fun to see two women being supportive to each other instead of cat fighting.

And since ST is all about the senior staff, it just makes sense to do it that way.

[Aquarius]

And I'm supposed to believe that the only people on Enterprise 1 T'Pol will socialize with are Trip, Archer, and Phlox I don't think so.

This is what my remarks were in response to. Sorry.

[WarpGirl]

No neeed to be sorry I suppose saying "And I'm supposed to believe the only people T'Pol would EVER socialize with are Trip Archer and Phlox." Would have been clearer. Sometimes I think faster than I type.

[Aquarius]

I understand, but I still don't think it's such a stretch when you're dealing with someone who clearly isn't prone to letting outsiders in all that often. We're supposed to believe that Archer and Trip are special cases amongst the humans, and Phlox is a special case because he and T'Pol have the shared experience of being the non-human minority, something no one else on the ship can really relate to. As for Hoshi specifically, you still have the huge gap in rank to be a serious speed bump toward friendship/socializing; they may grow to respect and admire each other, and when you start adding even more "friends", the original exceptions start losing their "exceptional" status.

Now, if we're talking about a situation where Trip and T'Pol are a couple and are have outed themselves, and Trip and Hoshi have been hanging out socially, then it would make sense to me for T'Pol to extend her social circle to include her.

[WarpGirl]

Well like I said I think there was already a basis to at least start a social relationship.

1. T'Pol offering to teach Hoshi meditation. T'Pol initiated physical contact to help Hoshi recover from her panic attack. Yes at the time it was logical and necessary given the fact that the circumstances were not good. BUT she did not have to offer to continue helping her after the situation had passed. She could have recommended Hoshi get anti-anxiety medication, seek counciling from Phlox (a trained psychotherapist) or recommend Hoshi be sent home. All available logical courses of action.

2. The boss thing has never mattered much in Trek, seriously I don't see the issue.

3. Like I said before any defined relationship would've been welcomed by me even a purely professional one or a rivalry.

[Aquarius]

2. The boss thing has never mattered much in Trek, seriously I don't see the issue.

That one would tend to depend on the character in question, though, and I think T'Pol would pay more attention to that than most. Yes she "outranks" Trip, but again, he's the exception, as he's supposed to be.

Trip, by contrast, is more easygoing and social by nature. Rank won't matter much to him when it comes to, say, a pickup game of basketball in the gym or something like that. As long as everyone is in their place and things work the way they should when duty calls and everyone gets the respect they're supposed to at work, he's cool with it.

[WarpGirl]

True but again it would depend on a number of different circumstances. Throughout Trek history superior officers have a pretty good on-off switch when it comes to relationships with subordinents. All in all I'd say Riker had the best one. Now Take into account T'Pol's shyness, Vulcan nature, and dedication to duty, I'd say she'd have a definite hard time to maintain a friendship with a superior or a subordinent. HOWEVER, I believe that if she wanted to work at it, she would overcome any difficulties.

[Aquarius]

Yes, she could overcome the difficulties, but that assumes she'd have the interest in overcoming them. I'm not convinced she necessarily would. I think she'd keep most people at arm's length, unless circumstances dictated otherwise (as in the aforementioned example where Trip's friends kind of become T'Pol's de facto friends by extension of the relationship and the fact that she'd likely be spending more time with them because he does).

[WarpGirl]

I guess there's nothing more for me to say on that. I mean I never saw anything to tell me definatively either way. I saw nothing to indicate she wouldn't have an intrest in forming a friendship outside of Trip's friendships.