Archer as Captain

[Brandyjane]

Maybe I'm wrong about this, but wasn't the other ship repaired and ready to leave at any time? If Archer had begged even more, it might have spooked the other captain and he might have departed at warp speeds. Similarly, if Archer attempted to come up with alternative solutions, the aliens could have left with their warp core while he was still consulting with Trip and T'Pol about something he already knew wasn't possible.

Unless I've forgotten something, Trip doesn't really hesitate about stealing the warp core. If there was even the possibility that he could pull off some engineering magic in time to meet Degra, I think he would have spoken up.

I also don't think finding someone else to trade with was much of an option. Didn't that transcript quoted above indicate that even the impulse engines were a little iffy? They only had three days, and, to paraphrase T'Pol, space is very big. How likely is it that they could have found another ship with warp drive ruined and even impulse drive on the fritz. Even if they found someone else, who's to say those people would be willing to trade anything for a warp core or parts to fix the damaged one?

I agree that the decision was morally wrong, it was a horribly wrong thing to do, yet at the exact same time it was the right decision based on the situation he was given. I don't think Archer went into it lightly. I thought he looked like a tortured man when he was telling the other captain that he didn't have a choice. They really should have revisited the consequences, though. In fact, I think they should have found a ship full of dead Ilyrians and let Archer, Malcolm, and Trip deal with that guilt. And I do think that orders or no orders, everyone who boarded that ship shared in the guilt. Frankly, I was always a little disturbed by Trip's relative lack of concern. I absolutely adore Trip, yet his reaction bothers me a lot more than Archer's.

[Silverbullet]

Alelou, JT and I are trying to write a story about the aftermath of this episode. Life has got in the way but I have hopes that JT can now focus on it again.

What we are doing is having the aliens charging Archer, Trip and Reed with Piracy and murder as one of hte crew died because of the attack when they stole the coil.

Hopefully chapter two will be ready very soon. Then we can get rolling on the rest. How many chapters? Not known depends on what we come up with and what happens. Stay tuned

SB

[WarpGirl]

Unless I've forgotten something, Trip doesn't really hesitate about stealing the warp core.

Oh I don't let Trip off there either. I thought he was downright OOC in those scenes.

My thing is Archer didn't try! He spent that whole scene arguing with T'Pol instead of consulting with his people. Or trying to convince the Captain. If there was time enough for that arguement there was time enough to look for other options.

[Silverbullet]

One thing I often thought. If aliens had deep space communications. Certainly they could have contacted thier home world and had a rescue ship come to thier aid. It may have taken a while but not three years. Maybe a few months. I think that the aliens wold have more than one Warp capable ship available so a rescue ship could be sent at warp speed. Once the Aliens sent thier locaton so the rescue shp could find them. I believe the three years was for dramatic efffect by the writers. Then they simply forgot about them later and didn't finish the story of what happened too them.

[WarpGirl]

They might have been out-of-range.

[aadarshinah]

And earth only had one warp 5 ship at the time. Maybe the aliens were in the same position?

[honeybee]

I agree that the decision was morally wrong, it was a horribly wrong thing to do, yet at the exact same time it was the right decision based on the situation he was given.

Totally agree, Brandyjane - it's easy for all of us, in our comfortable safe little lives to judge what Archer did - because any way you slice it - he did active harm to innocents - innocents that helped them.

It's really an interesting moral quandary for Archer from an internal POV. First and Second season Archer was so firm in about the good intentions of his mission, at least in his own mind. Even when he tortured the guy early on, that guy's a bad guy. He's an enemy. It's easier to justify, despite it being a gross violation of Earth ethics and ideals.

The aliens in this situation are friends. He put them in an awful position and betrayed their trust, which probably smarts just as much when he thinks about it. But the bottom line is, he put that ship in a bad position - but nobody was killed (though they could be as a result of what Archer did) - but you measure that against the billions of lives at stake - and he did what he needed to do.

It reminds me of the TNG episode with the Binars (Phlox referenced them once). Picard asks them why they chose to steal Enterprise rather than just ask to use its computer. The answer is that their civilization was at stake, and they could not risk a no.

Then they simply forgot about them later and didn't finish the story of what happened too them.

I would have liked to see Starfleet somehow get some help to them - a line or two would have been nice. And they could very well have some options over the time they are stranded. Archer put them at risk and at traumatic inconvenience but if they were resourceful, they had options open to them.

[Silverbullet]

Maybe they could get in to range in a while. Maybe they had a bunch of Warp drive capable ships. The one Archer met was on an exploration mission so that suggests they Aliens had other ones as they could spare a Warp capable ship for exploration. I kow Enterprise was too but that doesn't mean the aliens were restricted to one warp drive ship. There wasn't any indication how advanced the aleins were and how large thier Society was.

The Klingons had many warp drive ships as did the Vulcans and Andorians. Earth was the last out of the gate. But the aliens that enterprise met and stole the Warp Coil from may have been as advanced as the Vulcans and Andorians.

I still think the three years thing was writers doing to make the theft mor dramatic.

Anyway, what has that to do with Archer being a Captain?

[Brandyjane]

Unless I've forgotten something, Trip doesn't really hesitate about stealing the warp core.

Oh I don't let Trip off there either. I thought he was downright OOC in those scenes.

Thank you! I've never actually had anyone else agree that Trip was in the wrong, too. I hold Archer more responsible because he's the captain, but I also think Trip bears a lot of guilt, too, since he's the one who actually gets in there and steals it.

You're right, WarpGirl: Trip is out of character there. I mean, I realize that they have to do it to stop the attack and Trip has the added motivation of avenging his sister, but these were innocent aliens, not the Xindi. I really think he would have at least questioned the order. I'm not surprised that he told Archer he did the right thing after the fact, though. I liked that scene between them. It was almost like the old days, back before "Cogenitor." Trip knew Archer was feeling terribly guilty, but he also knew they had done what they had to do, so he provides some comfort to his friend. I think it would make a nice scene addition, though, if we saw Trip confiding to T'Pol some time later, after that scene, that he felt sick about what he had done.

Oh, but this is an Archer thread, not a Trip one...Let's see...Archer as captain...I think Archer is the hottest captain, though not as hot as his chief engineer.

[honeybee]

I'm going to disagree about Trip being OOC stealing the warp core - and stay on topic!

Right from The Xindi/Expanse episodes, it's clear that Trip's moral lenses have been changed. He's the one who makes Archer promise they are going after the Xindi hard. In Twilight (after Earth is destroyed), he's got no problem blowing Xindi out the airlock. Trip, fortunately, often has T'Pol there to actually listen to him and talk through his feelings. By Damage, they're not speaking much anymore - and so he's got no one to talk him down. He's always admired Archer, and I think Trip - as we saw in Cogenitor - would be willing to take risks/do damage for a cause he believes is right. To him, saving the Earth is the cause. Later, in Season 4, he's willing to stand up to Archer and even early on when he suggests to Archer that they reinstate movie night, it indicates that's Trip is not a blind follower of Archer. However, I can totally buy that if Archer gave Trip a chance to go outlaw in the cause of saving Earth - and not kill or torture in the process - Trip would go along with it. Twilight Trip, after all, is willing to execute Xindi without trial in a very painful way. RU Trip hasn't been pressed that hard, but there's an outlaw streak there - one that I think normally Archer has to keep in check, but unleashes in this case.

[Silverbullet]

Okay, I must be one sick dude. I don't disagree with Archer or Trip. Trip was the only one who could remove the coil and install it on the Enterprise so he had to go along. He was ordered to. In that situation you don't argue with your Commander. You do that later.

I remember the Vietnam war. One incident and the explanation staggered me: A village was bombed to ruble. When aksed the command said "We had to destroy the village in order to save it." actually when one knew the circumstances it made sense. But it drew a lot of outrage from people in the U.S.

So too with Archer he had to steal from the Aliens and leave them stranded even if he knew that moraly it was wrong.

Remmember T'Pol argued with him about it and even threw her PAAd on his desk in anger. She was opposed to the opertion but in the end supported it.

You can have Trip, I will take the lovely T'POl

[Brandyjane]

Right from The Xindi/Expanse episodes, it's clear that Trip's moral lenses have been changed. He's the one who makes Archer promise they are going after the Xindi hard.

I agree. In fact, his moral lenses change far quicker than Archer's, I think.

In Twilight (after Earth is destroyed), he's got no problem blowing Xindi out the airlock.

But those were the enemy.

Trip, fortunately, often has T'Pol there to actually listen to him and talk through his feelings. By Damage, they're not speaking much anymore - and so he's got no one to talk him down. He's always admired Archer, and I think Trip - as we saw in Cogenitor - would be willing to take risks/do damage for a cause he believes is right. To him, saving the Earth is the cause.

I can't disagree with this.

However, I can totally buy that if Archer gave Trip a chance to go outlaw in the cause of saving Earth - and not kill or torture in the process - Trip would go along with it. Twilight Trip, after all, is willing to execute Xindi without trial in a very painful way. RU Trip hasn't been pressed that hard, but there's an outlaw streak there - one that I think normally Archer has to keep in check, but unleashes in this case.

Trip definitely has an outlaw streak, though he usually keeps it in check. We saw that in "First Flight." I don't think it's out of character for him to steal the warp core. I do think it's out of character for him to show no remorse for hurting an innocent.

Okay, I must be one sick dude. I don't disagree with Archer or Trip. Trip was the only one who could remove the coil and install it on the Enterprise so he had to go along. He was ordered to. In that situation you don't argue with your Commander. You do that later.

I don't think you're sick. I agree that in the end they really had no choice, and both men did what they had to do. And, yeah, I guess you're right. In a situation this perilous, if Trip knows there's no other choice, he probably shouldn't argue with the commanding officer. I'm used to Starfleet officers arguing with the captain or volunteering their opinions all the time, but I guess it's not like that in the real military, is it? But I still think he would have shown some remorse.

You can have Trip, I will take the lovely T'POl

That sounds like a fair trade!

[honeybee]

I agree that Trip probably would have felt some guilt over it - perhaps after the fact. It's possible he did, we just didn't get a chance to see it. However, let's look at this from the opposite end - would you maroon yourself for three years, at risk but not in immediate danger, in order to save 10 billion strangers and their entire civilization? I think I would. Now, I agree that its morally questionable to force these aliens to give up their warp core - but if I were them I would have given the Warp Core or sought another solution if I could. Thank goodness in my mind - I'm not bound by the prime directive - whether I'm putting myself in Archer or the aliens' shoes.

[aadarshinah]

However, let's look at this from the opposite end - would you maroon yourself for three years, at risk but not in immediate danger, in order to save 10 billion strangers and their entire civilization? I think I would. Now, I agree that its morally questionable to force these aliens to give up their warp core - but if I were them I would have given the Warp Core or sought another solution if I could.

Being the cynical person I am, I have to say that the aliens only had Enterprise's word that their planet was in trouble. For all the aliens knew, Archer was lying and used ploys like this to steal warp coils all the time.

[Brandyjane]

I've thought about that before, Honeybee. I think I'd want some proof to make sure Archer wasn't lying, but, yeah, I'd like to think I'd give up the warp core voluntarily if I'd been in their position.