Archer as Captain

[aadarshinah]

The term is brevetting and I think could actually work. If Hayes was a captain (in the MACOs) and brevetted to a major because it was "more appropriate" for the position he was holding, while he would techincally outrank Reed....

Or, even better, assume for a moment that Hayes was a major and that a MACO Major and a Starfleet Lt. are exactly equal in rank. Then assume that Hayes was a frocked Lt. Colonel, meaning that he was just waiting for space to open up in the ranks to be promoted. Then techincally he would outrank Reed, but because the promotion was yet to be in effect, he didn't actually...

But I think we're getting insanely OT now.

[Silverbullet]

Ardasdinah, I hve never heard of a "Frocked" Officer before. Not saying there is not but I have never heard the term.

Yes thre are Brevet Ranks and they can even be offered to a civilian with prior military service. As happened in the Revolutionary war with General Von Steuban who taught the Americans how to drill. Believe that John Paul Jones also was brveted. So a brevet rank can be offered to a foreign national who has had previous Military service. Think tha they mmust become citizens ASAP, not sure.

I was going to use this as a way of giving T'Pol rank in the third season.Archer asking Starfleet for, and receiving, a Brevet rank of full commander (temporary) in the third season which she would carry until she became a regular Starfleet Officer. Only way I could think of having her as FO. since as a civilian she was not in either the VHC or Starfleet and w s not an Officer. wish the damned writers had come up with that.

NO, archer could not offer her a battle field commision. She would have to be an enlisted crewman of starfleet in order to be offered and to accept a battlefield commision.

SB

[Thot]

Exactly! I'm demoting the person with the most experience in space travelling, diplomacy and science on a space ship, because there's a high decorated graduate from West Point, who probably has never left the Sol system. *No Ma'ma*

I think you meant ma'am and not mama... But in any case I'm a miss, I cannot bear the thought of being ma'am yet. Give me a few more years please.

1. I wanted to write ma'am.
2. It was meant more along the lines of a general/undirected exclamation on my side to the whole world, in order to underline my irony. Looks like I did a poor job.
3. I didn't know that ma'am insinuates an older age to the person adressed. That's new.

Therefore my most sincere apology.

[Kevin Thomas Riley]

The term is brevetting and I think could actually work. If Hayes was a captain (in the MACOs) and brevetted to a major because it was "more appropriate" for the position he was holding, while he would techincally outrank Reed....

It would only be "more appropriate" in regards to that there cannot be two Captains on a vessel. Not because of what he commanded. A Major (O-4) - or Captain (O-3) - usually commands a company, some 100-200 men, but the MACO contingent on the Enterprise was far fewer, probably just a platoon, some 30-40 men. And a platoon would be commanded by a Lieutenant (O-2 or even O-1). So Hayes really ought to have been just an LT. Think of the Colonial Marines contingent on Aliens.

Or, even better, assume for a moment that Hayes was a major and that a MACO Major and a Starfleet Lt. are exactly equal in rank.

That wouldn't make sense, even if we assume a more simplified rank system, with fewer ranks. Let's see how that might look:

Starfleet:

Ensign
Lieutenant
Commander
Captain

MACO:

Lieutenant
Captain
Major
Colonel

There's just no way a MACO Major could be equal to a SF Lieutenant, unless the lowest MACO officer rank would be a Captain (which is plain weird) or if there aren't any Captain rank in the MACOs (which is maginally less weird).

[aadarshinah]

That wouldn't make sense, even if we assume a more simplified rank system, with fewer ranks. Let's see how that might look:

I didn't say it made sense, but if we have only 4 ranks below flag on ENT (though I like to assume Lt. Commander, at the very least, exists), and obviously more exist in the MACOs, then we have to assume that somehow the ranks are equivlent, if we go by show.

It would only be "more appropriate" in regards to that there cannot be two Captains on a vessel.

I don't presume to be more knowledgeable about these things than what wikipedia and a few other random places have taught me, so I simply say it's Star Trek and, presumably, someone somewhere in the series gave thought to this and had a decent reason for doing what they did. Even if it ends up being that "Major Hayes" sounds cooler (or more military and less Starfleet) than "Lt. Hayes", or less confusing than "Captain Hayes", or shorter than "Lt. Colonel Hayes".

[Kevin Thomas Riley]

... so I simply say it's Star Trek and, presumably, someone somewhere in the series gave thought to this and had a decent reason for doing what they did.

You give them too much credit. I think the problem is that no one actually gave thought to this, and that's how we ended up with this mess.

What we're doing is trying to make sense of something that don't make sense. But hey, that what most Trek geeks do...

I think they cast Steven Culp, and then realized he's too old to be a mere LT and thus made him a MAJ, even though his unit is only platoon strength. But hey, only obsessive Trek geeks (such as yours truly) would be --> at that.

[aadarshinah]

You give them too much credit. I think the problem is that no one actually gave thought to this, and that's how we ended up with this mess.

I never said it was a good reason.

think they cast Steven Culp, and then realized he's too old to be a mere LT and thus made him a MAJ, even though his unit is only platoon strength. But hey, only obsessive Trek geeks (such as yours truly) would be --> at that.

At least if they'd kept him at Lt. we could have had some wonderful story about how Hayes had done something stupid/reckless/etc in the past and been demoted, giving us a decent reason why Reed didn't like him.

[WarpGirl]

1. I wanted to write ma'am.
2. It was meant more along the lines of a general/undirected exclamation on my side to the whole world, in order to underline my irony. Looks like I did a poor job.
3. I didn't know that ma'am insinuates an older age to the person adressed. That's new.

Therefore my most sincere apology.

1. That's good to know because I don't need any impossible kids crawling out of the woodwork.

2. I understood your point, and got a chuckle, but T'Pol is still technically a civilian in season 3 and cannot be demoted.

3. You're forgiven. I'm just getting more paranoid the closer I come to 30.

I'm pretty sure Lt. Commander doesn't exist until the Romulan War, memory Alpha seems to think that's the case. But however convoluted SF ranks are in the ENT era, it's pretty obvious they didn't consider themselves a combat branch of the Military until the Xindi. I can drum up some sympathy for Archer there. But the man still should have used his resources, and took counsel from people who had better training for the situation.

[Silverbullet]

Archer as Captain was equal to a full Colonel. Trip as full commander was equal to a Lt. Colonel. A Lt commander is equal to a Major and a Lt is equal to a captain. Lt J.G. is equal to a first Lt. and en Ensigm is equal to a second Lt. Hayes would fall between Reed and Tucker.

I never had any problem with Hayes being a Major but had a problem without knowing how large the MAACO contingent was. When Hoshi sat down with some MAACOs in the dining Hall Hayes was with them. There were ony three or four MAACOs but later I saw some female MAACO, including the infamous Cole. So the contingent may have been larger than a Copmany rather than a platoon. My mind just went blANK. i Was trying to remember what came after a company. Squad, Platooon, company.....

[Kevin Thomas Riley]

There can't have been a MACO company on board. Then there'd be more MACOs than Starfleet crewmembers. Before the MACOs came on board, the NX-01 had about 85 people, officers and crew.

And the only reason we didn't see any LT CMDRs, or LT JGs for that matter, where that the prop department never bothered to make the hollow rank pips necessary. The ones we use on this board is just conjecture. Still, that doesn't preclude that those ranks didn't exist in the ENT era. I prefer to think they did.

[aadarshinah]

If they did, though, why was no one ever promoted? Maybe it's just my wishful thinking coloured by too many war movies/novels, but don't the heroes in these cases tend to be promoted afterwards? And if the crew of Enterprise - and the senior staff in particular - don't fall into that category for saving Earth from utter anhilation, than I don't know who does.

[WarpGirl]

Because Nobody thought anything through... I don't know if it was budget, networks, burn out, or what. But with the stuff like this it just seemed thrown together like last minute math homework. I'm sorry but not other Trek was this choppy by its 3rd season.

[Kevin Thomas Riley]

If they did, though, why was no one ever promoted? Maybe it's just my wishful thinking coloured by too many war movies/novels, but don't the heroes in these cases tend to be promoted afterwards? And if the crew of Enterprise - and the senior staff in particular - don't fall into that category for saving Earth from utter anhilation, than I don't know who does.

You don't really get promoted for heroics. That's why there are medals. You get promoted to fill certain positions that requires a certain rank. But yeah, there ought to have been promotions regardless (and I'm not even bothering with *the_abomination*). After two years or so as Ensigns, Sato and Mayweather would have become LT JGs, as Ensign is just a temporary "waiting rank".

Four years as Ensigns is stretching things, but I could live with it if they'd have gotten their junior lieutenantcies at the beginning of a fifth season.

And Reed should have been a LT CMDR from the start.

[aadarshinah]

If they did, though, why was no one ever promoted? Maybe it's just my wishful thinking coloured by too many war movies/novels, but don't the heroes in these cases tend to be promoted afterwards? And if the crew of Enterprise - and the senior staff in particular - don't fall into that category for saving Earth from utter anhilation, than I don't know who does.

You don't really get promoted for heroics. That's why there are medals. You get promoted to fill certain positions that requires a certain rank. But yeah, there ought to have been promotions regardless (and I'm not even bothering with *the_abomination*). After two years or so as Ensigns, Sato and Mayweather would have become LT JGs, as Ensign is just a temporary "waiting rank".

repeat question, replacing "promotions" with "medals"

[Kevin Thomas Riley]

repeat question, replacing "promotions" with "medals"

They probably got medals. You just don't wear them on those ugly jumpsuits. And we never saw them in dress uniforms.