Archer as Captain

[Aquarius]

A starship is not a democracy. Even if Archer consulted, he didn't have to listen. Even if Starfleet is more civilian than military, the crew doesn't get a vote.

Just saying.

[Misplaced]

A starship is not a democracy. Even if Archer consulted, he didn't have to listen. Even if Starfleet is more civilian than military, the crew doesn't get a vote.

Just saying.

Word.

[honeybee]

Especially in a time of crisis, decisions have to be made quickly. Dithering can be disastrous and even in small groups consensus is difficult to reach. Someone has to make the call. And even as one is analyzing things in retrospect - one has to account for the pressure, fear, adrenaline and time constraints a leader is under. Good leaders neither dither nor to they ignore advice. They do what is appropriate at the time. In Damage, Archer does not ignore T'Pol, he concedes her point - it's just he chooses to steal the coil anyway. If he had said "there's nothing wrong with what I am about to do" or attempted to spin it in some way - that would have been very problematic. He didn't. I'm not arguing that Archer always made the right choice - he didn't - but in his situation, with all the pressure and all unknowns, he could have easily been paralyzed with indecision.

[WarpGirl]

I was not saying it was a democracy, in fact I specifically said it was not! However, being that Archer was never trained for warfare (canon) the fact that he did not get information from people that were was wrong. Some of the choices he made, might have been avoided if he had consulted with his resources. Getting information is not being democratic. How am I not making that clear???????????????

[aadarshinah]

On that note, I'd be curious to find out exactly at what point Starfleet militarized - because there is a definate military difference between ENT and TOS, including the use of the naval tradition stripes rather than the much simplier pips. I imagine it occured sometime in or sortly after the Romulan War... but that's probably better left for another thread.

That being said, I do feel that Archer could have made better use of the MACOs throughout the Xindi War. They seem highly underutilized until the final few episodes of the season and then forgotten about completely in season 4 - after "Home," at least. Granted, they were no longer in a war situation and Enterprise was never designed with a MACO contingent in mind, but, after his words to Hernandez in above episode, you'd have thought he'd have asked to keep a few of them on...

[WarpGirl]

Oh the MACO's were an awesome idea poorly used. They were like GI-Joe figures that SF played with. I don't understand why they didn't set Hayes up with Archer in a joint command. At least Hayes was trained to know what he was doing.

[Silverbullet]

Actually, Enterprise could have used a few more decks and had a permanent MAACO unit assigned. They were going in to what was very little known. They knew about Vulcans, andorians, Klingons and Tellerites but they were supposed to go out further and meet new species. It would have been a little short sighted to think tha they would not meet hostile species and that there would never be a possibility of being boarded. An ounce of prevention. While Hayes was in commad of the MAACos he would be under Archer and not a joint commander. His advice would be critical at tiimes.

However, in this situation Hayes would be out of his depth. He would not be trained for piracy. Hayes would carry out Archers orders to cover the theft though.

In thinking of stories I often considered a MAACO deck with thier own mess hall, workout rooms, barracks, traning areas and Off duty areas where they could relax a bit. That would take up a deck.

Enterprise was too smal,l understaffed and did not have the resources in storage it needed. Like a spare Warp Coil.

Archer useed what he had as best as he could. It was a decision that was more or less made for him. Save Earth in any way you can by any means. No rooom for ethical debate.

[BloodDragon]

When a writer or a screenwriter writes a story or a short film, an episode, in order to show some sort of ethical and/or moral dilemma, the writer or the screenwriter has to develop all the implications, all the consequences indwelling into the choices shown in the story or in the episode.
Otherwise, the writer or the screenwriter is evidently pursuing the mere desire to hit the reader or the audience.
That's not good.

[aadarshinah]

Welcome BlooddDragon. I don't think anyone's going to disagree with you, except to say that, when you're writing a TV series - ie, something with multiple episodes - you should make sure more things carry over between episodes than then the basic arc (the Xindi in this instance) and the love interests. For instance, the alien ship and its implications were never mentioned after "Damages". And, on that note, was Trip/T'Pol/Reed's mutiny in "Hatchery" ever mentioned again (beyond that breif quip in "North Star")? Was Lorien ever mentioned again after "E2"? Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

[WarpGirl]

When a writer or a screenwriter writes a story or a short film, an episode, in order to show some sort of ethical and/or moral dilemma, the writer or the screenwriter has to develop all the implications, all the consequences indwelling into the choices shown in the story or in the episode.
Otherwise, the writer or the screenwriter is evidently pursuing the mere desire to hit the reader or the audience.
That's not good.

Welcome Welcome Welcome!!!!!!!!!!!!! So happy you're here. I also concur. Especially since this entire season we are dealing with here is fraught with ethically grey areas, The creation of Sim, the torture of captives, the attacking and robbery of non-combatants, giving aid to the enemy... And none of these things were expounded on to their full potential. This season was an entire story arc, there were no true stand alone episodes, yet very few flowed with each other the events of Damage were never thought of again.

[Silverbullet]

Welcome Blood Dragon. Nice User Name. Hope to see your Avatar soon.

SB

[honeybee]

Actually, Enterprise could have used a few more decks and had a permanent MAACO unit assigned.

B&B have been pretty open about the fact that Malcolm was originally conceived at a MACO and there was to be a MACO unit aboard from season one, but the network vetoed the idea saying they did not want Starfleet to appear to be a violent or military organization.

[WarpGirl]

You know I understand networks can be... Profit oriented. However, experienced producers and writers should know this and have a plan to adapt their original ideas accordingly. The B's seem to have a lot of ideas, but their planning and execution seems to have been a little haphazard, in this particular Trek. Everytime someone mentions something about it, the patented line appears to be...

Well we wanted to do this but the Networks didn't like it.

Well its their responsibility to make what the networks want to work. Unlike us with fanfic.

[Thot]

I don't understand why they didn't set Hayes up with Archer in a joint command. At least Hayes was trained to know what he was doing.

And the episode 'Hatchery' is a perfect example, why you should never allow such a thing. Their straight forward thinking is their advantage and their weakness at the same time.

I don't want to figure out, how much bad blood you create if you change the chain of command without any fault on the side of the ones demoted.

In addition: What kind of experience on Hayes's side? Like Trip said: Earth hasn't seen a single conflict on it's soil in decades. So where the hell should somebody like the MACOs get any first hand conflict experience?
Highly sophisticated simulations: Sure
Action in form of assaults against criminal or terroristic groups, what would put them closer to a SWAT team: Perhaps

But to handle them as a group of war/combat veterans seams so inplausible to me and quite contradictional to the atmosphere of the social/historical developements of the time of Enterprise in the episodes before.

Therefore, I found Archer's handling of the MACOs not so unreasonable.

They knew about Vulcans, andorians, Klingons and Tellerites but they were supposed to go out further and meet new species. It would have been a little short sighted to think tha they would not meet hostile species and that there would never be a possibility of being boarded. An ounce of prevention. While Hayes was in commad of the MAACos he would be under Archer and not a joint commander. His advice would be critical at tiimes.

Well, the funny thing is: They don't know about the Klingons, the Andorians and the Tellarites before they met them
They are naiive. Perhaps the writers caracterized them too naiive but still naiive.

[honeybee]

But to handle them as a group of war/combat veterans seams so inplausible to me and quite contradictional to the atmosphere of the social/historical developements of the time of Enterprise in the episodes before.

Right. Hatchery indicates that the MACOs, while well trained, don't have a lot of experience - especially in space exploration. Hayes learns something it that episode. My guess is that the MACOs have experience more like a SWAT team, dealing with small skirmishes here and there - but nothing on the level of a full scale war. Certainly, Earth was aware enough of potential danger from aliens to have the MACOs trained and weapons on Enterprise - but the danger was an abstract one. It's possible that following Enterprise's interactions with the Klingons, Suliban and Romulans in Season 1 & 2, defensive military efforts were stepped up.