Malcolm and guns

For all those girls that can't get enough of the British bomber.

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Re: Malcolm and guns

Postby WarpGirl » Wed Aug 05, 2009 10:43 pm

I think Brits make revolvers.
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Re: Malcolm and guns

Postby Distracted » Wed Aug 05, 2009 10:47 pm

I'm sure they do, but would anyone want to collect them? The iconic old west revolvers were all American made.
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Re: Malcolm and guns

Postby WarpGirl » Thu Aug 06, 2009 1:42 am

People collect them in Clive Cussler novels. Which I have to say I think Malcolm would be addicted to those old books. Trip too I should write a fic where it's a point of commonality.
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Re: Malcolm and guns

Postby Elessar » Thu Aug 06, 2009 1:57 am

yeah, the real iconic revolvers are old west revolvers. I'll do some more research on famous Old West revolvers if that's what you want, but here's the staple british revolver of the late 19th century:

http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:qsm ... clnk&gl=us

.455 Webley. The thing about a bullet sort of unscrewing and coming open and hiding something is fine, but it's unlikely such a round would actually fire. You'd have to have a tapped projectile and tapped brass casing... like screw threaded so they could fit together, if I understand what you're suggesting. That wouldn't really fire, even if you had powder in the casing, because the projectile wouldn't come out. The round would probably explode in the chamber due to the screw threading locking the bullet into the cartridge casing.

Let me know what you're interested in knowing about.
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Re: Malcolm and guns

Postby panyasan » Thu Aug 06, 2009 4:51 am

Elessar wrote:yeah, the real iconic revolvers are old west revolvers. I'll do some more research on famous Old West revolvers if that's what you want, but here's the staple british revolver of the late 19th century:

http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:qsm ... clnk&gl=us

.455 Webley. The thing about a bullet sort of unscrewing and coming open and hiding something is fine, but it's unlikely such a round would actually fire. You'd have to have a tapped projectile and tapped brass casing... like screw threaded so they could fit together, if I understand what you're suggesting. That wouldn't really fire, even if you had powder in the casing, because the projectile wouldn't come out. The round would probably explode in the chamber due to the screw threading locking the bullet into the cartridge casing.

Let me know what you're interested in knowing about.

The .455 Webley sounds like the gun I am looking for! In my story Malcolm has this habit of cleaning the gun and checking the bullets on every gun he purchases. Is it possible that he developed this habit because he once bought a gun where some one has been messing with the bullets and the round exploded in the chamber? Could some one be messing with bullets, for example, because the orginal bullets were missing and they put in fake antique bullets?
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Re: Malcolm and guns

Postby WarpGirl » Thu Aug 06, 2009 4:54 am

Wait a minute he's actually going to use this gun collection. Um why??????? :dunno:
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Re: Malcolm and guns

Postby panyasan » Thu Aug 06, 2009 5:02 am

No, he is not going to use this gun collection. He just has this habit of when he get a new one for his collection, he cleans the gun right away and always checks the bullets. So I was thinking he developed this habit, because of an accident he had some years back, when some one was messing with the bullets and the gun exploded and he nearly got away. I was asking if that last senario was plausible.
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Re: Malcolm and guns

Postby WarpGirl » Thu Aug 06, 2009 5:31 am

Oh well, that makes sense. Digging into my TV ballistics knowledge, courtesy of CSI, CSI-NY, and Bones. I'd say it's possible, assuming TV is in any accurate on this. I know that if a bullet gets stuck in the chamber and another if fired out the possibility of the chamber rupturing exists. Actual explosion? Ask Elessar they teach you that stuff for real in the military.
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Re: Malcolm and guns

Postby Elessar » Thu Aug 06, 2009 2:12 pm

panyasan wrote:No, he is not going to use this gun collection. He just has this habit of when he get a new one for his collection, he cleans the gun right away and always checks the bullets. So I was thinking he developed this habit, because of an accident he had some years back, when some one was messing with the bullets and the gun exploded and he nearly got away. I was asking if that last senario was plausible.


This is really a habit that every shooter develops.... has to develop... ESPECIALLY collectible firearms. I mean if they are ever going to be fired.

In fact, as I am a registered collect of Curios & Relics (collectible firearms - it means I can have them shipped directly to ME instead of to a gun store - this is firearms 50+ years old or older and/or derive most/all of their value from being rare/collectible or military surplus weapons greater than 25 years out of service), I have to do this a lot, and not only do you have to clean them, but you almost universally have to have them checked out by a qualified and licensed gunsmith (which Malcolm very well could practically be, if you want), that's if they are to be fired.

There's kind of two kinds of collectors, and then mixes of both. There's people who collect very expensive but unfirable antique weapons... those need to be inspected but not for safety reasons, just to make sure it's in the best working condition it could be in. But there is such a thing as a collectible that the process of firing would damage or even destroy. Some weapons are so old and fragile that they aren't meant to be fired... but possibly loaded... and sometimes loaded with blanks, or if it's not a cartridge weapon but an old cap-and-ball or muzzle loader or like even a ball musket, it might be loaded with just powder load just so it can be fired like a blank. Like for war recreation purposes, like re-enactments of the Civil War.

Then there's the kind of collector who collects shootable weapons - that's me. Weapons that are collectible but are not all dainty and fragile and can be fired. There is sometimes a fine line. For instance, an early model production WW-1 era Springfield 1903 rifle (not the later 03-A3 like I have), CAN be fired but due to early flaws in the casting process for the receivers (the heat treatment was inferior to later processes), rifles with SN's under about 300,000 are somewhat brittle and if you are going to fire them you have to be an experienced hand-loader so that you can handload your ammunition.

Also to keep in mind now that I mention ammunition - not ALL ammunition is like today's modern "projectile+casing+powder+primer". That's a very modern sophisticated development. Can anyone date the first "cartridge" ? I bet D's husband can. I'm thinking around... 1890. For some reason the Krag-Jorgensen rifle that we used in the Spanish-American war strikes me as the first mass produced cartridge rifle (as in, the bullet, powder, everything you needed to shoot it was self contained in a 'round') But MOST firearms were not like that. Most firearms before that time were some kind of cap-and-ball or musket-and-powder load. Even the popular and sophisticated Civil War era "Minie-ball" which was the first time anyone chopped the back side off a musket ball and allowed it to expand under the internal gasses and engage barrel rifling. Anyway.

Every experienced shooter will inspect and clean a new weapon thoroughly. In fact, in the military it is considered standard practice and part of training to inspect any weapon that anybody HANDS you, because it's not your weapon and you don't know what they did to it. You check and clear the chamber every time.

But to answer your question, it's feasible that Malcolm had an accident in the past... maybe almost lost a finger... because of a mistake. I know at least two people who have accidentally discharged firearms while cleaning. I never have. I used to think it's retarded, how could you make this mistake? Then one day I realized that because I keep 1 or 2 firearms loaded in the house, I couldn't remember whether a gun was loaded or not. It's very simple to unload, regardless of what the weapon is, but the point is I almost assumed it was unloaded before I realized I could not be sure. Plus, some stupid handgun manufacturers actually built them so that you had to pull the trigger to disassemble the weapon (cough Glock cough), so that's happened to people. I've never broken down a loaded weapon. Never should.

To answer WarpGirl's question... yes a round can be fired, not go off correctly, jam in the barrel or the chamber, and then another round go off, impact it, and explode. It's call stove-piping. There are videos on Youtube of it... there's one where a guy's AR15 barrel explodes in front of him because of that. It can be dangerous but it's just what happens if you have bad ammo. The powder doesn't uniformly or completely detonate and the round only goes 5-6 inches down the barrel, kind of like a bottle rocket that doesn't go off all the way and just sputters.

Btw, just re-reading your original post and I noticed something else worth mentioning. You will never buy a weapon that has ammo already it. or at least, you SHOULDN'T! Big buyer-beware moment there. I'd run away from a dealer that was selling loaded weapons. The only thing you might see similar to that (which I have) is in country gun auctions (which I've been to, lol), if they are selling somewhat antiquated weapons (antiques), they may include ammo with it, just as a sort of bonus. Like, normally you wouldn't buy an 1896 Steyr-Mannlicher bolt action in 8x56mm because it's IMPOSSIBLE to find the ammo today. But if they sold 60 rounds of ammo with it and the rifle only went for $60 (as I saw one go for), you might grab it. Not only do u have 60 rounds to fire, but u have brass to reload in the future (assuming you reload, which a lot of gun aficionados do). It's really an art as much as a science and something I could see Malcolm doing (reloading/handloading) same thing.
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Re: Malcolm and guns

Postby WarpGirl » Thu Aug 06, 2009 2:52 pm

OK Do you like guns much Elessar??? :guffaw: I'm wondering what started the hobby? Not saying I don't think it's cool, IT IS! But I'm just wondering how you got into it.

Back to Malcolm, I think whatever gun you choose you have to go with something either really menecing, or really kind of showy. Because Malcom has a showy side to him. He shaved when he thought he was going to freeze to death.
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Re: Malcolm and guns

Postby Elessar » Fri Aug 07, 2009 1:19 am

WarpGirl wrote:OK Do you like guns much Elessar??? :guffaw: I'm wondering what started the hobby? Not saying I don't think it's cool, IT IS! But I'm just wondering how you got into it.


:lol:

I think I got abstractly interested in guns and military technology at a very young age. A friend of the family was a retired Lt in the USAF who had been a concept artist for a classified defense project that designed what later became known as the MIRV, Multiple Impact Reentry Vehicle. So I used to talk to him about nukes and missiles and all kinds of stuff like that when I was like... idk, 7 or 8, 9. Ask him stupid questions lol, like "What would happen if two atomic bombs hit each other in the air and exploded?!" :lol:, "What would happen if every country in the world launched a nuke and they all detonated in the air at the same time?!"

A MIRV is basically... When the USSR and US realized that that the actual warhead package of a nuke was relatively small compared to the delivery system necessary to launch an ICBM into sub-orbit, they went "Hey! We can package 20 warheads on smaller rockets that separate from the ICBM once it reaches sub-orbit over the Soviet Union, then the 20 smaller warheads would detach and fly to their own individual targets!" Thus, a single 20 megaton ICBM became 20-1 megaton ICBMs. Much more lethal, especially as guidance technology began to improve in the 80's. By the way -- interesting note, the Soviet Union ALWAYS built and tested more powerful yield thermonuclear warheads because their delivery systems were crude and inaccurate and they needed a 20 megaton blast to guarantee they'd hit the metropolitan area of their target. That way if their missile was 30 miles outside of NYC, it would still pretty much vaporize Manhattan and Long Island. American warheads, on the other hand, could be 1 megaton of 2 megatons or even 500 kilotons and accomplish the same goal because they were more precise.

ANYWAY! Way off topic. I got into weapons technology & design pretty much at the same time I got into space travel and nuclear physics and the like. That interest remained largely academic until about 10th grade when I got a bug up my ass to want an M1 Garand. The CMP (Civilian Marksmanship Program) were selling surplus models for about $900 (match condition rifles that go for $2k+ today, I kick myself, I really do). I never got my mom to accede to it... $900 for a FIRST move into a new hobby, she thought I was nuts. I finally let it go. And to be honest, at the time I barely knew anything about the intricacies. Caliber, components, bolt action, mechanisms, etc. I knew nothing of any of this.

Then round about... sophomore or junior year in college... probably just before I got into Enterprise, actually... I decided, "I'm going to get a gun." Why? I don't know. Just dawned on me I wanted one. Seemed fun. On vacation with my dad, we rented a Sig Sauer P220 .45 caliber and took my dad's ancient .38 revolver. So my first gun was a .45 Sig Sauer 8) . That's standard issue FBI service pistol, oh yeah. Great weapon.

After that I bugged my mom until she got me my Ruger P90 for Christmas that year. I've posted pictures of it... looks like this:

http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m95/ ... Ruger2.jpg

Around this time, I started to just read anything I could find online about guns, military stuff, marksmanship, everything and everything related. That's kind of what I do when I get into a new hobby... get online and consume any and every piece of relevant information! :lol:

A few years later I started training for the Marine Corps and the big kicker was when an enlisted reserve Corporal named Matt that I met (who had been to Iraq on two tours as a humvee driver in the batallion commander's security contingent), took me shooting with 2 or 3 other Marines and officer candidates. He took an arsenal. By this time I had also bought a .22 bolt action rifle (which is a very weak rifle, it's like what kids learn on). You can kill a bird, maybe a squirrel, snake, MAYBE a rabbit with one, but not much else. When he took me shooting, he had his AR15, his friend's AK47, his friend's SKS, his friend's M44 Mosin Nagant, my .22 rifle, my .45 pistol. I fell in love with the M44 because the recoil was so powerful and the rifle just seemed SOOOO powerful. I could NOT BELIEVE that people actually shot this weapon in combat. I also very very much enjoyed shooting the AK. The AR is not as comfortable or fun to shoot (really shows you why the uneducated, untrained masses use the AK, it's a breeze), but it's a surgical weapon, the AR15. You take a sniper rifle from WW2 and the AR15 equal-or-superior in accuracy (in design - manufacturing standards vary).

So from then it kinda snowballed :lol:. Not 2 weeks after that shooting trip, I bought a 1944 Mosin Nagant M44 and a 1944 Mosin Nagant M91/30. I was originally going to get an M44 b/c that's what I shot, and I didn't knwo what an M91/30 was. But as I did some research I learned the M91/30 was more accurate, had lower recoil (b/c it's longer and heavier). It was also the weapon of choice of famous Russian sniper Vasili Zaitsev. It looked fugly online but I figured, WTH, they were $70 and $80 a piece, so I got one of each. I basically only had my .45 pistol and those two bolt action rifles for a good 2 years, and shot the M91/30 almost exclusively. I didn't even like the M44 anymore. I sold it about 3 months ago. Once I got out of college and got a job, I bought an AK47... then a few more Mosin Nagants (very cheap but interesting and powerful and fun Russian WW2 bolt action rifles. And no joke, I could hit a zombie's head at 100y w/ the iron sights. Or a deer if you prefer reality ;)). Then just... uhh... got an AR15, an 8mm Czech Mauser, an Enfield No4 Mk1, a Springfield M1903-A3. Oh at some point I picked up a Curio & Relic Czech CZ-83 9mm military police service pistol. Surprisingly accurate little thing. I rebuilt the recoil rod & spring and firing pin spring so I could fire hotter-loaded modern ammunition out of it to get better performance.

Soo... yeah that's how :mrgreen: . It's a lot of fun and marksmanship is a big challenge, you never stop learning and improving if you persevere :)


/unhijacking thread

SO PANNY! What kind of weapon is Malcolm going to have?
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Re: Malcolm and guns

Postby panyasan » Fri Aug 07, 2009 4:42 am

Elessar wrote:
panyasan wrote:No, he is not going to use this gun collection. He just has this habit of when he get a new one for his collection, he cleans the gun right away and always checks the bullets. So I was thinking he developed this habit, because of an accident he had some years back, when some one was messing with the bullets and the gun exploded and he nearly got away. I was asking if that last senario was plausible.


This is really a habit that every shooter develops.... has to develop... ESPECIALLY collectible firearms. I mean if they are ever going to be fired.

In fact, as I am a registered collect of Curios & Relics (collectible firearms - it means I can have them shipped directly to ME instead of to a gun store - this is firearms 50+ years old or older and/or derive most/all of their value from being rare/collectible or military surplus weapons greater than 25 years out of service), I have to do this a lot, and not only do you have to clean them, but you almost universally have to have them checked out by a qualified and licensed gunsmith (which Malcolm very well could practically be, if you want), that's if they are to be fired.

There's kind of two kinds of collectors, and then mixes of both. There's people who collect very expensive but unfirable antique weapons... those need to be inspected but not for safety reasons, just to make sure it's in the best working condition it could be in. But there is such a thing as a collectible that the process of firing would damage or even destroy. Some weapons are so old and fragile that they aren't meant to be fired... but possibly loaded... and sometimes loaded with blanks, or if it's not a cartridge weapon but an old cap-and-ball or muzzle loader or like even a ball musket, it might be loaded with just powder load just so it can be fired like a blank. Like for war recreation purposes, like re-enactments of the Civil War.

Then there's the kind of collector who collects shootable weapons - that's me. Weapons that are collectible but are not all dainty and fragile and can be fired. There is sometimes a fine line. For instance, an early model production WW-1 era Springfield 1903 rifle (not the later 03-A3 like I have), CAN be fired but due to early flaws in the casting process for the receivers (the heat treatment was inferior to later processes), rifles with SN's under about 300,000 are somewhat brittle and if you are going to fire them you have to be an experienced hand-loader so that you can handload your ammunition.

Every experienced shooter will inspect and clean a new weapon thoroughly. In fact, in the military it is considered standard practice and part of training to inspect any weapon that anybody HANDS you, because it's not your weapon and you don't know what they did to it. You check and clear the chamber every time.

But to answer your question, it's feasible that Malcolm had an accident in the past... maybe almost lost a finger... because of a mistake. I know at least two people who have accidentally discharged firearms while cleaning. I never have. I used to think it's retarded, how could you make this mistake? Then one day I realized that because I keep 1 or 2 firearms loaded in the house, I couldn't remember whether a gun was loaded or not. It's very simple to unload, regardless of what the weapon is, but the point is I almost assumed it was unloaded before I realized I could not be sure. Plus, some stupid handgun manufacturers actually built them so that you had to pull the trigger to disassemble the weapon (cough Glock cough), so that's happened to people. I've never broken down a loaded weapon. Never should.

Btw, just re-reading your original post and I noticed something else worth mentioning. You will never buy a weapon that has ammo already it. or at least, you SHOULDN'T! Big buyer-beware moment there. I'd run away from a dealer that was selling loaded weapons. The only thing you might see similar to that (which I have) is in country gun auctions (which I've been to, lol), if they are selling somewhat antiquated weapons (antiques), they may include ammo with it, just as a sort of bonus. Like, normally you wouldn't buy an 1896 Steyr-Mannlicher bolt action in 8x56mm because it's IMPOSSIBLE to find the ammo today. But if they sold 60 rounds of ammo with it and the rifle only went for $60 (as I saw one go for), you might grab it. Not only do u have 60 rounds to fire, but u have brass to reload in the future (assuming you reload, which a lot of gun aficionados do). It's really an art as much as a science and something I could see Malcolm doing (reloading/handloading) same thing.

Thanks, Elessar! I see Malcolm as a very capable men when it comes to his job, so I let him explain "you should always check your gun" and leave the accident out.
Also your remark about the bullets not being in the gun, made me think. The gun that plays a central part in one of my coming chapters is actually a present that Malcolm receives. The person from whom he receives it, has a difficult history with Malcolm (I am not going to tell the plot of course :D ) and Malcolm has reason to be very careful.
So I will put the gun in a little, wooden box, with the bullets in a row under, you can close the box, wrap paper around it and make it a present. It's a pity I can not hide the bullets in the gun, because I like them out of sight, but you told me guns likes these are never loaded, which makes perfectly sense to me.
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Re: Malcolm and guns

Postby panyasan » Fri Aug 07, 2009 4:56 am

Elessar wrote:Soo... yeah that's how :mrgreen: . It's a lot of fun and marksmanship is a big challenge, you never stop learning and improving if you persevere :)


/unhijacking thread

SO PANNY! What kind of weapon is Malcolm going to have?

I am still going for the .455 Webley, also because that gun was used in colonial wars and Malcolm did live in one of the old British colonies, Malaysia. If you don't mind, I am going to use lots of stuff that had been said in the thread and also name a couple of guns mentioned as part of his gun collection. I wanted to make Malcolm a capable, knowlegable and enthousiastic gun collector and this thread has given me lots of ideas to pull that off. Thanks everyone! :D
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Re: Malcolm and guns

Postby Elessar » Fri Aug 07, 2009 2:32 pm

panyasan wrote:
Elessar wrote:Soo... yeah that's how :mrgreen: . It's a lot of fun and marksmanship is a big challenge, you never stop learning and improving if you persevere :)


/unhijacking thread

SO PANNY! What kind of weapon is Malcolm going to have?

I am still going for the .455 Webley, also because that gun was used in colonial wars and Malcolm did live in one of the old British colonies, Malaysia. If you don't mind, I am going to use lots of stuff that had been said in the thread and also name a couple of guns mentioned as part of his gun collection. I wanted to make Malcolm a capable, knowlegable and enthousiastic gun collector and this thread has given me lots of ideas to pull that off. Thanks everyone! :D


Sounds good. I have tonnnnnnnnnnnnnns more weapon ideas he could collect ;)

Shoot me an additional questions, no pun intended! :raspberry:
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Re: Malcolm and guns

Postby WarpGirl » Fri Aug 07, 2009 2:52 pm

I think the pun was intended Elessar. :lol: Panysan can't wait to read it, don't keep us poor fans waiting too long OK.
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