The Good Men Do

[Distracted]

I haven't read it, and as much as the fanfics where T'Pol gets all weepy annoy me I probably shouldn't after KKGlinka's description of the ending. I'd rather Trip get weepy, to be honest with you. He's the HUMAN, for pete's sake! If you've got to have a badly written overly emotional tear-fest at least keep it in canon!!!

But noooo. Men don't cry.

Well, I have news for the author who wrote TGTMD. Vulcans don't either. Duh.

T'Pol did cry on screen though... at least twice (and hell if she cried over ARCHER I'd totally believe she'd cry over Trip... in a suppressed kinda way though not all boohoohoohooooo )

But Trip CRIED TOO! And T'Pol was under the influence of mood altering drugs or had just lost her mother when she did it. So why does it always have to be the woman who breaks down when in this situation both of them are very unlikely to do so without the most unusual provocation? It burns me when everybody gripes that Trip is "too emotional" in a fanfic but nobody lets out a peep when T'Pol falls apart. It's character assassination, I tell you. Everyone assumes "female weakness". Vulcan females don't DO that! (Unless they happen to be on Trellium. )

[CX]

T'Pol cryed about her mother (on the show).

Right - one time. Trip probably cried a lot more than her, and he had pretty good reasons for it too, and he was never high or coming down off of anything.

[Asso]

I haven't read it, and as much as the fanfics where T'Pol gets all weepy annoy me I probably shouldn't after KKGlinka's description of the ending. I'd rather Trip get weepy, to be honest with you. He's the HUMAN, for pete's sake! If you've got to have a badly written overly emotional tear-fest at least keep it in canon!!!

But noooo. Men don't cry.

Well, I have news for the author who wrote TGTMD. Vulcans don't either. Duh.

T'Pol did cry on screen though... at least twice (and hell if she cried over ARCHER I'd totally believe she'd cry over Trip... in a suppressed kinda way though not all boohoohoohooooo )

But Trip CRIED TOO! And T'Pol was under the influence of mood altering drugs or had just lost her mother when she did it. So why does it always have to be the woman who breaks down when in this situation both of them are very unlikely to do so without the most unusual provocation? It burns me when everybody gripes that Trip is "too emotional" in a fanfic but nobody lets out a peep when T'Pol falls apart. It's character assassination, I tell you. Everyone assumes "female weakness". Vulcan females don't DO that! (Unless they happen to be on Trellium. )

Please Distracted, don't destroy so assertivly a side of the T'Pol's character that unmistakably exists. And that pushes me (and I think not only me) to like her.
She's - T'Pol - not a simple Vulcan female.
Now...
First. Nobody authorizes us to believe Vulcans (Men and Women) don't cry. The fact they repress emotions doesn't mean they don't have emotions.
Second. "And T'Pol was under the influence of mood altering drugs or had just lost her mother when she did it." Exactly! And why has she used drugs? She is a complex character. We don't forget that. That's one of the reasons because of which she's bright. She's NOT flat.
And Trip? NO! He, too, is not flat!

[Alelou]

Well, JT, I have to admit I skimmed through TGTMD precisely for the TnT scenes and I liked them well enough. Although the way they took that (rather nice) shuttlecraft scene and turned it into a dream messed with canon in ways I'm surprised were allowed. Still, anything to get away from the way *the_abomination* left it.

I just couldn't be bothered to plow through the rest of the plot. And I really couldn't care less about Jake and Nog. Perhaps I should give it another shot, but I think I'd rather try that World Without End book you mentioned instead.

So Daedalus sucks, huh? Well, my son and I have very different tastes. It probably has more space ships and guns.

[Distracted]

^^Well, Asso, since you and I evidently have VERY different likes and dislikes about T'Pol's character, I'm not ashamed to say that I'm just going to agree to disagree with you about her rampant emotionalism. One of the things I LIKE about Vulcans is that they don't go all wishy washy on you when the going gets tough. They just roll up their sleeves and deal with it... logically. I hated the way the writers portrayed T'Pol as weak, and only barely managed to swallow it because of the "drugs affecting her control" excuse, which... I might add AGAIN... was TOTALLY unnecessary since they already had Panarr Syndrome on which to blame their overly emotional plotlines. Sigh.

So the very thing that makes you like T'Pol is evidently something that makes me grit my teeth. I used it as the reason TnT ended up together in my series, and it makes a great tribulation for them to overcome, but I certainly DON'T think that her over-emotionalism compared to other Vulcans is a favorable attribute. It annoys me, to be truthful. Vulcans are supposed to be strong, capable and logical, not somebody's weepy sidekick.

[Asso]

T'Pol is not weak, she's strong.
What is strength? Logic? Chimaera.
T'Pol understands that, and also Spock.
And we mustn't forget logic is a Human invention.

[TPoptarts]

^^Well, Asso, since you and I evidently have VERY different likes and dislikes about T'Pol's character, I'm not ashamed to say that I'm just going to agree to disagree with you about her rampant emotionalism. One of the things I LIKE about Vulcans is that they don't go all wishy washy on you when the going gets tough. They just roll up their sleeves and deal with it... logically. I hated the way the writers portrayed T'Pol as weak, and only barely managed to swallow it because of the "drugs affecting her control" excuse, which... I might add AGAIN... was TOTALLY unnecessary since they already had Panarr Syndrome on which to blame their overly emotional plotlines. Sigh.

So the very thing that makes you like T'Pol is evidently something that makes me grit my teeth. I used it as the reason TnT ended up together in my series, and it makes a great tribulation for them to overcome, but I certainly DON'T think that her over-emotionalism compared to other Vulcans is a favorable attribute. It annoys me, to be truthful. Vulcans are supposed to be strong, capable and logical, not somebody's weepy sidekick.

^ Agreed... however I don't think that means she can't be emotional at all, like even Spock showed a wide range of emotions in his own Vulcan way. I think T'Pol's emotions add depth to her character. Like when she cried for her mother. But I agree that she shouldn't be weak. I hate when she's portrayed as a weak little sidekick. But it still doesn't mean that she can't have emotions. And yeah Trip should be more emotional.

[CX]

T'Pol is not weak, she's strong.
What is strength? Logic? Chimaera.
T'Pol understands that, And also Spock.

On screen evidence shows the contrary. T'Pol's been shown to crack under pressure, and to be frank she's been shown as self-destructive.

[pookha]

but grief is not only recognized by vulcans we have seen it can certainly motivate some in odd ways.
i am sure some vulcans would call sarek illogical for getting involved in the scheme to hijack enterprise.

[Alelou]

I think must qualify as one of the great perennial debates on this board.

[Asso]

T'Pol is not weak, she's strong.
What is strength? Logic? Chimaera.
T'Pol understands that, And also Spock.

On screen evidence shows the contrary. T'Pol's been shown to crack under pressure, and to be frank she's been shown as self-destructive.

Please, be careful. We shouldn't use canon to support our thoughts. What you said could be used by me to demonstrate the exact contrary. At last, I think all this is the consequence of different feelings, and maybe of different cultures. But, once more, we mustn't use canon and the show to support our desires.

[Asso]

I think must qualify as one of the great perennial debates on this board.

T'Pol's grandeur!

[Alelou]

If you can't argue from canon, with the show as evidence, what can you possibly argue from except your own personal leanings?

[Distracted]

I think he's trying to say that we shouldn't argue at all, but just agree that everyone's entitled to their own opinion since canon can be twisted to support practically any viewpoint. My opinion is that a good discussion is the spice of life.

[Asso]

Exactly.
And I'm here just because of that!
"Inter alia".