Human minimal viable population size

[justTripn]

In 1491, I read that Indians (Native Americans) are very genetically similar, more so than Europeans. They were much more healthy than Europeans at first contact (All the Europeans remarked on how handsome and strong and healthy they looked, and painted portrayed them like Greek statues). However a huge percentage of the native population of the Americas maybe 90% was wiped out by disease immediately after first contact. Disease doesn't spread quite so quickly through a population where everyone has a slightly different immune system.

I think the take-home lesson for Linda's story, is repopulating a planet with 200 people will work well enough in the short term for decades, or hundreds, or thousands of years. Go for it!

[CX]

There it was pretty much a case of never having been exposed to western diseases before. IIRC, small pox is still considered a dangerous disease, even though it's been all but eliminated, because no one in the current generation has been immunized against it.

[blacknblue]

Speak for yourself, thou child of minimal years. I have been immunized. Graybeard that I am.

In fairness, the exchange of misery between Europe and America was not entirely one sided. Europe gave America smallpox, and got syphillis in return. There is also the the ongoing debate about the economic benefits of whiskey versus tobacco. I defy anyone to tell me who got the shaft on that deal. Especially since the Amerindians already had beer.

[CX]

We still can't hold our liquor very well - at least most American Indians tend to have a high percentage of alcoholism in its population, even to this day.

[Distracted]

Which is quite possibly cultural rather than genetic. You take away a warrior's pride and his weapon, and what's he got left?

[JadziaKathryn]

Suppose they had the medical technology to avoid passing on genetic defects?

[blacknblue]

If they were using gene binary cloning to make the babies then they could easily do that. I think originally Linda was using the premise that Vulcan Male sperm could fertilize Human eggs.

[Distracted]

Natural conception makes no sense biologically, but since when has trekscience made sense?

It would be convenient to have the ability to predict genetic diseases before conception, but if they relied on sequencing the new embryo before implantation, then all the genetic sequencing in the world still wouldn't make culling unnecessary. They'd just be able to do it earlier, before actually implanting the embryo. I personally see no difference in that vs killing the baby after it's born. Logical, true, but cold blooded.

It would be more logical to prevent the conception of defective embryos to begin with by sequencing everyone's genome and choosing biological parents who don't have any defective genes in common. Then they could implant the embryo in whoever was willing to bear it and raise it. It wouldn't necessarily have to be the baby's actual biological mother.

That would actually make more sense. It would broaden the available gene pool but leave those unsuited to childbirth free to do other work, while women who enjoy bearing and raising children could choose that job, perhaps in shifts over a seven year period to coincide with the Vulcan's natural mating schedule.

[Linda]

OMG my head is spinning! I am going to print this thread off and study it and do some more research. Between the issues of having to back down in levels of technology and creating a stable population from 200 people consisting of two species that will have to interbred to grow over time, I have a lot to think about. Well, not just for this particular story in which I actually have the stranded people found after twenty years, but a non Star Trek sci fi story that I am trying to write.

[blacknblue]

We still can't hold our liquor very well - at least most American Indians tend to have a high percentage of alcoholism in its population, even to this day.

I have some uncles and cousins with the same problem. And their Amerindian heritage is minimal. It's the hillbilly redneck heritage that turned them into booze hounds.

[Mitchell]

We still can't hold our liquor very well - at least most American Indians tend to have a high percentage of alcoholism in its population, even to this day.

I have some uncles and cousins with the same problem. And their Amerindian heritage is minimal. It's the hillbilly redneck heritage that turned them into booze hounds.

Irish Much perhaps to?

Thats atleast the problem with half my family, the Irish decended part anyway.
oddly enough the More German part, are like stone walls when it comes to holdin on to their booze. Now if I could just figure out what else was mixxed in way back when.



About this whole breedin problem (that to be honest, with all this talk bout selective breedin, an Gene pickin. is leavin me a bit uncomfortable. Cause all this is just one small step away from parents pickin out designer blue eyed, an blond haired babies.) Creepy.

I beleave its possible for a closed off population of say a 100 humans, an Vulcans to still reproduce with in their species. With out to much trouble(with out deformed babies, an other "fun" problems popin up. But watch out once their "rescued" cause their gona probably start droppin off like flies).

The biggest problem wont be findin a set up with out to much inbreedin goinin on. But rather getting them stubburn Humans to agree to the Idea, of being told who its ok for them to "mate"/reproduce with, an who it isnt. Vulcans probably wouldnt even blink at this, but we Humans an are pesky emotions would get in the way no doubt.

[Distracted]

I would have to agree. The mechanics of setting up acceptably matched pairs would be pretty simple if one assumes the existence of a genome sequencer included within the colonists' medical supplies, but I would think that convincing the sceptics of the wisdom of choosing biological parents logically rather than randomly based on emotion would be the challenge. If they're conceiving the embryos in a lab and implanting them rather than going about it the old fashioned way, that might make it more acceptable. That way, couples could pair off however they wanted to for emotional reasons but conception would be a separate and regulated process. If two people wanted to be together but their chances for having a defective offspring were too high, then the woman could choose to bear and raise the child of someone else whose genes were compatible. No sex involved, and the couple would get their child. The medical staff would have to keep records of who was genetically related to whom, though, since you wouldn't be able to tell by the birth mother. Hmmm. There's some amazing story potential here.

[Linda]

This last from Distracted was more like what I was envisoning. In the story I have, there are few Vulcan females and few human males in the 200 - it is mostly Vulcan males (the ship is the Vahklas) ferrying some human female colonists to their new home and giving some human college students a vacation. They take on these passengers to earn money to keep the old ship in repair and resupplied. Of course it all goes terribly wrong and they are stranded.

Facing a long term and perhaps permenant stay on this planet, the Vulcans, of course, have a personal longevity problem to be solved, let along a generational one. Also there are food issues. The planet has a varied flora and fauna and material resources like you have on earth but no native sentient life forms.

The Humans want to hunt. This does create some problems for the Vulcans even though they are V'tosh. We have survival issues and social issues. We have technology issues - having to back down a step or two and use more primitive methods. Native plants and animals must be tested to see if they are eatable for Humans and Vulcans and the animals they brought with them (sehlats, dogs, sheep). I have been thinking of adding rabbits. The colonists have seed grain and seeds to grow a few earth vegetables. The Vulcans have a few plants and may be able to use some of the seed from foods they have on the ship that wer ment to be eaten, not reproduced.

There was a sick bay on the Vahklas and a female Vulcan advanced level healer. The humans have a few people with EMT type training. They have time to strip the ship before its orbit decays and it crashes. They have a shuttle to ferry down everything. There are issues of refrigeration (food that was on board and medicines). There are issues of knowledge base retention - only a few years out on padd and computer batteries for the databases. They have salvaged tools and wiring, metals and all kinds of things from the ship. They find the ship after it crashes, with the shuttle, and the tanks with fuel for the shuttle (same fuel as for the now defunct impulse engine) have not ruptured and will last several years. They can explore and map the planet - the shuttle has sensors.

This is an old story From Soval's Annex that I am trying to make more realistic and for which I am writing a sequel. Probabably have bitten off too much here, but I already did that a long time ago. Just want to make it better, and am fascinated by the complexity of the problems this scenario presents! A lot can be glossed over and not explained in the story, but I'd like to explore these survival problems a bit more.

[Asso]

This is a very interesting plot!

[Distracted]

Sounds fascinating. Maybe you could assume that the medical database has everyone's genomes already recorded, and so the computer can come up with pairs who would produce viable offspring without genetic defects. I'm not sure if a working IVF lab is believable in your scenario, but certainly using the computer to make sure that established pairings are safe and if not, using artificial insemination to create a healthy child for a mated pair to raise if they have too high of a risk of defective offspring would be doable until the power for the computers ran out. Maybe the first priority would be the establishment of some sort of geoelectric generator to power the computer. That way they'd have computational resources and access to the entire database for several generations until parts started wearing out.

There's a cultural aspect of this that you might want to explore... or not. Human males, in the absence of females, can go without sex. Vulcan males don't have that luxury. What's gonna happen when all these unpaired males go into Ponfarr? Will the females volunteer to take shifts? Will they turn to other males? What will that do to established mated pairs if the female has to save the lives of her friends by mating with them? Will one female end up bonded to several males at once? Will males end up bonded to each other? Or will the superfluous males simply fight each other to the death, the victor then being "cured" of his blood fever by killing his opponent rather than by mating?

What if the Vulcans are resigned to this happening and a resourceful group of human females decide to take matters into their own hands? I can actually see family groups forming of a bonded male and a female along with her children and the "uncles" who are the fathers of her other children via Ponfarrs she had to rescue them from. Maybe the bonded pair would choose their closest friends... men they worked with and respected... to join their family group in this manner. Weird. But it might work if jealousy could be pushed aside for survival reasons.