Interesting 'First Contact' Tidbits - Vulcans & Alcohol

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Interesting 'First Contact' Tidbits - Vulcans & Alcohol

Postby Elessar » Wed Aug 29, 2007 5:27 pm

I just watched 'ST: First Contact' again last night with my roommate Travis (he insisted on watching a movie and I got to pick it :badgrin: )

And I noticed in the end that the Vulcan that Zephram Cochrane first meets and is sitting with in the bar later has a drink with him. On the table is a bottle and two glasses, one of which Cochrane is drinking, so I think it's safe to assume it's alcohol. The Vulcan takes a drink, looks puzzled, inspects the glass, then the music kicks on and he stands up alarmed, Cochrane sets him at ease, and then he sits back down and takes another drink of the alcohol and looks as if he is intrigued and enjoying the drink.

I am sure that, given that T'Pol acqueisced when dealing with the Andorians, that a Vulcan would succumb and drink alcohol at a diplomatic function and especially to avoid a diplomatic incident. T'Pol's, and Soval's, behavior showed as much. But it didn't appear that Cochrane was insisting the Vulcan try or continue to drink from the glass. It is possible (though unlikely, considering that most-if-not-all beverages that fall under the term "alcohol" in the galaxy rely on ethanol and therefore would have similar taste and smell) that the Vulcans didn't KNOW it was alcohol at first, especially given that there was no doubt a language barrier between them. That's probabaly an interesting story in and of itself -- how Cochrane and the first Vulcans communicated, without UTs or even anyone on the Vulcan ship who spoke English.

I've also always wondered as to the identity of the first Vulcans that landed there and the ship that Cochrane met, there was once a debate about it over at TrekBBS I think, as to whether it could have been Solkar in that group (because he is later cited as the first Vulcan Ambassador to Earth) or if these were just random "surveyers" as Troi mentioned, and were not in fact of a diplomatic capacity.
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Re: Interesting 'First Contact' Tidbits - Vulcans & Alcohol

Postby Linda » Wed Aug 29, 2007 5:53 pm

I would tend to assume these were non-diplomats. They were on a survey mission. But I would also assume that the Vulcans, being the logical beings they are (even back then), would have contingency plans for first contacts as part of the orders on any of their ships. I would like to think Solkar was on that ship, even was the captain. Then, being impressed by this chance encounter, decided to change his career path and become a diplomat.

I suppose the Vulcan might not know what he was drinking. And I am still unclear by what Spock said in a TOS episode that "My father's people were spared the dubious effects of alcohal." Did that mean Vulcans could not get drunk on alcohal? OR did it mean they never developed the fermentation process on their homeworld? I perfer the former, because I think the Vulcans would have come up with fermentation.
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Re: Interesting 'First Contact' Tidbits - Vulcans & Alcohol

Postby Elessar » Wed Aug 29, 2007 7:09 pm

Linda wrote:I would tend to assume these were non-diplomats. They were on a survey mission. But I would also assume that the Vulcans, being the logical beings they are (even back then), would have contingency plans for first contacts as part of the orders on any of their ships. I would like to think Solkar was on that ship, even was the captain. Then, being impressed by this chance encounter, decided to change his career path and become a diplomat.


ME TOO!! I already wrote a history for Solkar saying he was previously a diplomat, but Vulcans live so long (and in T'Pol's case) it's not uncommon for them to have more than one career field. I was thinking, too, just now, that it would make sense if he had been that survey ship captain and decided to become a diplomat.
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Re: Interesting 'First Contact' Tidbits - Vulcans & Alcohol

Postby TSara » Thu Aug 30, 2007 3:43 am

Linda wrote: I perfer the former, because I think the Vulcans would have come up with fermentation.


http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Vulcan_port

They did!

Vulcan Port! lol
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Re: Interesting 'First Contact' Tidbits - Vulcans & Alcohol

Postby Linda » Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:59 pm

Good find, T'Sara. Maybe there are small areas on Vulcan that are just right for grape growing. Then the beverages are aged in Vulcan caves till they are very 'old' and expensive and can be traded for things Vulcans really want. 'old' being a relative term over which Vulcans have an advantage in relation to Humans.
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Re: Interesting 'First Contact' Tidbits - Vulcans & Alcohol

Postby Emberchyld » Fri Aug 31, 2007 2:09 am

I'm glad that Memory Alpha put in that bit about real Port being only from northern Portugal (just like Champagne can only come from the Champagne region of France). Looks like even the Vulcans have no problem abusing/ignoring the Portuguese :( .

The Vulcan climate (ignoring the lack of water), seems to be pretty conducive to growing the grapes for drier wines, but port? Portugal goes from drier/less green in the south to very green and lush and cooler in the north, where port is made. Vulcan port must be from a verrrrrrry wet part of their planet! But this won't be the first inconsistency in Trek. :P

Uhm, on fermentation, if nothing else I'd assume that they'd come up with alcohol for it's antiseptic properties. And I'd think that, even if they didn't feel the effects, they could appreciate the taste. Lots of people drink wine with dinner without feeling any "dubious effects".

Edited to add: Images of Porto
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Re: Interesting 'First Contact' Tidbits - Vulcans & Alcohol

Postby Kevin Thomas Riley » Fri Aug 31, 2007 9:44 pm

I love Port! :drool:
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Re: Interesting 'First Contact' Tidbits - Vulcans & Alcohol

Postby JadziaKathryn » Fri Aug 31, 2007 9:46 pm

Now, I know zero about alcohol, but I have a theory. A human visiting Vulcan could've tried this Vulcan alcohol and said, "Gee, it tastes a bit like port." Thus the term 'Vulcan port' was born, even though Vulcans have another name for this drink altogether.
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Re: Interesting 'First Contact' Tidbits - Vulcans & Alcohol

Postby Elessar » Thu Sep 13, 2007 5:19 am

JadziaKathryn wrote:Now, I know zero about alcohol, but I have a theory. A human visiting Vulcan could've tried this Vulcan alcohol and said, "Gee, it tastes a bit like port." Thus the term 'Vulcan port' was born, even though Vulcans have another name for this drink altogether.


That's definitely concievable. In Enterprise, they seem to treat it like they don't ever touch the stuff.. From a human perspective that's... well, not to judge anyone's perspective on alcohol, but speaking purely from what I've read about medically, I think there's reasonable medical evidence to suggest that a CERTAIN intake of like red wine or maybe it's any alcohol at all, is good for you, so for the Vulcans to be all straight edge, if their bodies are the same as ours, is kind of provincial an attitude for Star Trek to take -- just assuming that alcohol is 100% an unhealthy vice/indulgence.

BUT, maybe it's bad for them, and not just a... moral choice no to imbibe. But if that is so, then Archer certainly doesn't know it, or anybody else we've ever seen on Enterprise, cuz everyone encourages Vulcans (T'Pol, Soval, etc) to drink, as if they just "don't want to" because it's illogical. Therefore I'm forced to presume that Star Trek's implicit intent is to suggest that Vulcans simply don't partake for, like I said, socially behavioral reasons based on the pervading belief (and truth) on Earth, today, that it's largely a vice that causes more problems than it solves.

The short-sightedness of Trek on some of these kinds of issues is a little disconcerting sometimes... we learn new things every day, and this "wine being good for you" tidbit is hardly new. It just disappoints me to imagine Trek taking a current, and often Western world-based generalization or long-held stereotype and displaying it as the still-pervading wisdom in the future, especially when its something like alcohol where there at least IS the supposition in our modern era of the possible opposite, i.e., that it has anatomically beneficial properties. My point being, if Vulcans recognized those things about alcohol that may be good for you, like lowering blood pressure or whatever it's supposed to do, then there would be no logical reason to refuse to imbibe... barring the possibility that it harms them, like I said.

For example, I don't expect Star Trek to turn around and say that in 200 years we've learned that heroine is actually GOOD for you, because there's nothing to suggest that, you might say that'd be pretty out-there. But, other than the red-wine example, there are other instances of prevailing thought being challenged today that they could think ahead and say "hey, what if we show that to have been discovered to be TRUE?" as they do with so many things. I can't think of a good specific example, unfortunately. I mean Trek prided itself in the 60's for breaking through the racial barrier by taking this prevailing thought of the time, racism and segregation, and having the audacity to say that people in the future have evolved beyond that narrow view. Why stop there and take every OTHER product of our narrow, historically subjective world at face value and perpetuate it through the future? It's kinda wimpy.
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Re: Interesting 'First Contact' Tidbits - Vulcans & Alcohol

Postby CX » Thu Sep 13, 2007 2:17 pm

I think it was just a case of ENT's writers forgetting about something that had been previously established (gee, there's a shocker). I mean, they forgot about how they made a point of having T'Pol refuse to touch her food with her hands in Broken Bow by having her use a fork and a knife on a breadstick, they forgot when and how Archer's father died, how are they going to remember something outside of their own series?
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Re: Interesting 'First Contact' Tidbits - Vulcans & Alcohol

Postby Linda » Thu Sep 13, 2007 3:52 pm

Although there may be less cultural variety among Vulcans than among Humans, and I think that statement is a canon fact? Among four billion Vulcans there must be a lot of regional cultural variation. And we can use that to account for apparent inconsistances in things cultural in canon, right?
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Re: Interesting 'First Contact' Tidbits - Vulcans & Alcohol

Postby Asso » Thu Sep 13, 2007 4:59 pm

Elessar wrote: BUT, maybe it's bad for them, and not just a... moral choice no to imbibe. But if that is so, then Archer certainly doesn't know it, or anybody else we've ever seen on Enterprise, cuz everyone encourages Vulcans (T'Pol, Soval, etc) to drink, as if they just "don't want to" because it's illogical. Therefore I'm forced to presume that Star Trek's implicit intent is to suggest that Vulcans simply don't partake for, like I said, socially behavioral reasons based on the pervading belief (and truth) on Earth, today, that it's largely a vice that causes more problems than it solves.


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This said (and considering it as true and necessary) the question is: you had better live as sick and die healthy or you had better live as healthy and die sick?
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Re: Interesting 'First Contact' Tidbits - Vulcans & Alcohol

Postby JadziaKathryn » Thu Sep 13, 2007 5:12 pm

Ah, but T'Pol had wine in "Carbon Creek," and I can't see her drinking any if it was really bad for her. What if it has no health benefits for them so they just don't have it very often because - oh, I don't know, does wine have a lot of calories? Or maybe they (like me) think it smells gross. :dunno:

However, I don't think Trek, and ENT in particular, were particularly hard on drinking. We saw Archer and Trip share some kind of hard liquor more than once.
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Re: Interesting 'First Contact' Tidbits - Vulcans & Alcohol

Postby evcake » Thu Sep 13, 2007 6:32 pm

I remember that in the very first episode, the ol' doc administed a shot of something medicinal to Captain Pike.

Actually, First Contact-wise, I have always been more curious about the effect of "Oobie-Doobie" :)
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Re: Interesting 'First Contact' Tidbits - Vulcans & Alcohol

Postby Elessar » Tue Sep 18, 2007 6:14 pm

Linda wrote:Although there may be less cultural variety among Vulcans than among Humans, and I think that statement is a canon fact? Among four billion Vulcans there must be a lot of regional cultural variation. And we can use that to account for apparent inconsistances in things cultural in canon, right?


I like this idea, and it solves a lot of problems... avoidance of all alcohol could be the practice of a 'puritan sect' of Vulcans that those we've seen happen to belong to... Which all happen to be academics/diplomats... maybe a social caste-relation...
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