DO YOU LIKE SIM?

[Aquarius]

I dunno. I don't buy the "A Vulcan would never do that" thing. Never say "never," they say. Especially when they've gone to great pains to establish that she's different from most Vulcans.

A Vulcan would never skip their meditation. Oh, wait--T'Pol did, at the suggestion her dreams would be more interesting if she did.

A Vulcan would never eat meat. Oh, wait--some do, because they disagree with that particular interpretation of Surak's teachings; rather than behave like "all other Vulcans," they're following their own path.

A Vulcan of T'Pol's time would never mind meld. Oh, wait--that's not true either. We have a whole bunch of Vulcans without Logic, as well as Syrranites, who engage in this practice in secret, despite the fact that "No Vulcan Would." And we have T'Pol, who as at the height of her Vulcan-ness, engaging in the practice out of curiosity. Unfortunately it became overwhelming and when she said "stop," her partner forced her because he got off on the control.

So...no Vulcan would have extra-marital sex or take drugs? Seems like the real answer is "Depends on the Vulcan..."

There are things for our own culture, our own species, that one would think, "oh, nobody would EVER do that." And I guarantee you, someone HAS, whether we know about it or not.

[WarpGirl]

You have a point, but again the B's put all of that in after Vulcans were established as a culture and a spieces. So I guess what I'm saying Vulcans aren't SUPPOSED to behave that way. Again I don't think Vulcans are biologically hardwired for promisucity, just like they're not hardwired to process emotions like humans do. It's not that they can't but to do so is not good for them, even dangerous.

Of course, Vulcans are individuals. But the B's made Vulcans very unsavory as a whole when it came to emotions. They were very disrespectful of the entire culture. I know that you feel that the whole, "trellium one-night-stand" makes T'Pol interesting. I can understand that. But I'd rather have integrity more than interesting. Also who's to say the V'tosh Katur don't die because of Pa'Nar and faulty control?

[Aquarius]

I would hardly call T'Pol promiscuous. She wasn't sleeping around, she was pursuing a man she had some pretty strong feelings for.

Also, having quit the High Command, it seems she was making a conscious effort to renounce some of her Vulcan-ness, so one could argue that from T'Pol's perspective, the fact that "no Vulcan would" may be a pretty compelling reason TO try it, for the sake of finding out just who "T'Pol" is--something she does through the use of drugs that help her to access her emotions (which have been established in "Fusion" and "Home" to have always been close to the surface, moreso than "most" Vulcans), through a relationship with a man that "No Vulcan Would" consider having, through recovery from substance abuse, and then through heavy study of the Kir'Shara, because, deep down she was right, the Vulcan-ness imposed upon her by society was a sham, any way.

She wants so badly to figure out who she is and her place in everything, that much is evident throughout the entire series, it's not something the Killer B's just cooked up so she could get physical with Trip. Sometimes being Vulcan and being T'Pol aren't mutually exclusive...but sometimes they are.

And again, there are a lot of things that humans aren't "supposed" to do, but people do them any way. Some vary in degrees of severity. Some are universally obvious as a no-no, like, say, going on a killing spree for the thrill of it. Some are pretty subjective and depend on the individual's values, like sex without marriage. So it seems like we have a a certain way Vulcans are "supposed" to be, and a bunch of Vulcans who, for various personal reasons of their own--including Spock every once in a while--who say "Hey, now wait a minute...WHO says we're "supposed" to be that way?"

I don't think B&B committed all that great of an atrocity against the Vulcans. At first it seemed like maybe they did, because I was just like you once, thinking "Hey, now wait a minute, this isn't the Vulcan philosophy Spock taught us in TOS...!" But for the most part, the Vulcan Arc satisfied me there. All B&B did was create a backstory I hadn't expected, show us that Vulcan wasn't "always" that way, but by the time the Vulcan Arc was over, you can see that yeah, this place is on its way to becoming Spock's Vulcan.

But it never would've happened if all the Vulcans accepted the status quo and didn't try doing their own thing from time to time, even if it was sex and drugs.

[WarpGirl]

OK I appologize in advances if I seem snippy or irritated, I'm not. But I am exausted from traveling, stressed from family, and I have insomnia. Nothing that was said upset me. Now here I go...

1. I didn't say T'Pol was permiscuous, by Human standards. There is a big difference regardless of my own personal beliefs.

2. T'Pol's "Vulcaness" During seasons 1-3 and half of 4 were due to a corrupt interpitation of Surak's ieachings from the VHC. So she was NEVER a "True Vulcan" and that is my problem from "Broken Bow" to *the_abomination*! Therefore "being T'Pol and being Vulcan" should have never been "mutually exclusive" THAT was an insult to Vulcan Culture. All the sex drugs and rock 'n roll were side effects.

3. For me the "Vulcan Arc" was too little too late. Even then they ignored T'Pol's crises of faith and just made her shallow and selfish until "Bound."

Finally do you notice that all the Vulcans that "go there own way" wind up with severe problems? Most of them are both psychological AND physical. We are talking about a DIFFERENT SPIECES. Things that are normal stages of development for us have different rules and consequences for them. Vulcans represent a FACET of humanity but they are not supposed to be viewed like other humans.

[Aquarius]

Regarding the Vulcan arc being too little too late, I disagree. Sorry, but I think it would be a little too spoon-feedy if they explained it all right away in Season One--"oh, by the way, we're going to show you a Vulcan that's being run by a corrupt government and a philosophy that's been misinterpreted, deliberately or otherwise...but don't worry, we'll fix it in a couple of years. We're just telling you now so you don't freak."

Somehow I don't think so.

And why is the assumption that all the V'tosh Katur fared badly? The evidence only points to one bad apple in the bunch. The other two we met seemed perfectly nice and could very well be free of Pa'nar syndrome. Obviously not everyone who secretly mind melds has it or transmits it--the Syrranites were just fine, and they had to start somewhere, didn't they?

And as for the Syrranites, they diverged from what Vulcans are "supposed" to be, and they turned out to be right.

Furthermore, I wouldn't trivialize T'Pol's experience as "sex, drugs, and rock 'n roll."

And another word on Vulcan promiscuity: T'Pring. She blatantly told Spock that if he won the challenge, she planned to cheat on him with Stonn. And she played him against his best friend. And she was so NOT into Spock that she wasn't even affected by his plak tow. That's a heartless bitch. And here was T'Pol, 100 years before, TRYING to feel something. In either case, you've got a couple of women in a jam because betrothal isn't all it's cracked up to be. T'Pol was at least under the impression that Koss and his family had written her off, so there was no one to "cheat" on at the time. As far as she knew she was a free agent, free to sleep with whomever she chose.

So it seems that the generation of Vulcans who behaved the way they were "supposed" to produced something even worse, because no matter what angle you look at it, what T'Pring did was a bitch move, shrouded in "logic."

[WarpGirl]

I'm not saying that the Vulcan Arc was awful. I actually liked it, but it should have been in season 3 or something. It was all just WAY too abrupt. Spoon-feeding is one thing, no forshadowing at all is just stupid. And if you really are so concerned about T'Pol's status as "unique" among Vulcans they kind of tossed that away with both the Syrranites and the V'tosh Kat'ur.

Just because only Tolaris was evil doesn't mean the other V'tosh Kat'ur won't suffer from ill effects of their philosophy. Just like good people can get communicable diseases through no fault of their own. I'm willing to bet that in the beginning there were Syrranites in the group.

As for the Syrranites who says they were the ones to break away first?Maybe they were forced out by the VHC because the VHC was the group corrupting Surak. Surak says so in "Kir'Shara.

I didn't mean to trivialize T'Pol's actions. On the contrary I believe they were EXTREMELY serious and caused a lot of heartache and pain to both her Trip and the crew because of her addiction. That's why I think its so awful.

Also remember even though T'Pring got out of marrying Spock she and Stonn became outcasts in Vulcan society. Just because there was noting illegal about her actions doesn't mean she got away with them. Technically she followed tradition. But she played false to Vulcan honor and values. Vulcans never condone adultry. If someone is seperated from their mate during Pon Farr it is a matter of life and death, but even then it is difficult for a Vulcan to mate with someone they aren't bonded with. Again see what I said about Tuvok.

Finally although Vulcans aren't human, they have "good" and "evil" people in their society. So comparing T'Pol and T'Pring, or Tolaris with Soval for example makes no sense.

Edit: When I say Syrranites I mean the group that follows Surak's true teachings. Not just the group led by Syrran and T'Pau.

[Aquarius]

Well, if you think about it, though, there were plenty of indications that things were about to fall apart on Vulcan. The whole P'Jem thing, for one--it showed us that we're dealing with a Vulcan government that doesn't honor its word and spies on people they're supposed to be forging a peace with, and lies about it. No way that was an isolated incident, and we found out later it wasn't.

Then there's how they took every opportunity to screw with T'Pol later on. The Pa'nar syndrome was a gift-wrapped opportunity for them, but there were others.

Just because only Tolaris was evil doesn't mean the other V'tosh Kat'ur won't suffer from ill effects of their philosophy.

It also doesn't mean that they will, but that's a common argument I also frequently hear made against those who don't go along with the religion currently in favor here on Planet Earth. And while Vulcans don't really have religion per se, it's obvious that there are meant to be parallels between religion and Surak's teachings for dramatic purposes. The comparisons to the various interpretations of Surak's teachings and the various interpretations of the Bible that were made in the Vulcan Arc are blatant and obvious. So sorry, but that argument sounds a little too much like "you're going to hell if you don't toe the line and do what we tell you God wants you to do."

Also, I don't know where you get the idea that T'Pring and Stonn were outcasts after the challenge. There is absolutely nothing in the "Amok Time" episode to suggest that, and I double-checked my fallible memory by going to the transcripts page and checking. So as far as we know, they got to go home and live happily ever after and make lots of Vulcan babies. You may have found something alluding to that on an online source, and that's fine if you want to play it that way for the sake of your own writings, but it wasn't in the episode so it's not the "gospel according to Trek." So at best you can say maybe they did, and maybe they didn't, and that's where fanon takes over because we're each free to run in any direction from there.

As for the Syrranites who says they were the ones to break away first?Maybe they were forced out by the VHC because the VHC was the group corrupting Surak. Surak says so in "Kir'Shara.

I'm not sure what that has to do with what I said. I was talking about people practicing mind melds in secret. You made the assertion that all the V'tosh Kat'ur were going to have problems like Pa'nar syndrome, and I was pointing out that the Syrranites also practiced unapproved mind melds and they were just fine, and even they had to start somewhere, in terms of learning how to do it. My remark about them diverging from the way Vulcans are "supposed" to be isn't to say that they got up and said "Screw you guys, we're leaving"; only that they went against the grain. I was not speaking about who left vs. who forced who out. And just because one group of melders also smiles and eats meat doesn't automatically mean they're all rotten and/or going to have problems. Tolaris had problems because he was an ass, not because he was a V'tosh Kat'ur

Finally although Vulcans aren't human, they have "good" and "evil" people in their society. So comparing T'Pol and T'Pring, or Tolaris with Soval for example makes no sense.

Sure it does. Both T'Pol and T'Pring went against how Vulcans are "supposed" to behave. T'Pring was VERY Vulcan in that by her people's custom she had the right to challenge and pick a different mate, however her intent to cheat was very UN-Vulcan, and the fact that she was unaffected by Spock's Blood Fever suggests she already had something going on with Stonn any way. T'Pol at least had some good intentions, they just all blew up in her face.

[Escriba]

Aquarius, you sound a bit harsh. Sorry, just saying if that wasn't the intention.

About the V'tosh Kat'ur, I see them as proto-Syrranites. I mean, they're a bunch of people that left the planet for very diverse reasons, but most of them seem to have left Vulcan for enlightment reasons, meaning that they weren't happy with the orthodox beliefs and customs. So maybe that's other of the clues to show us how Vulcans were a little rotten in that era and explains the Syrranites a little better.

But anyway, I've been thinking (which is always a bad thing) about what WarpGirl said about Vulcans being unable to engage in casual sex for physiological reasons (Vulcans are another species after all.) Maybe the trellium had something to do with that? Maybe it changes Vulcan metabolism. Just an idea...

[Aquarius]

Sorry. I think WarpGirl and I are both suffering from sleep deprivation and stress, and the unfortunate side effect of that happening to both of us at the same time is that it may be unintentionally feeding into it more. Wasn't my intent to be harsh, only to suggest that A) there are parallels going on with Vulcan that have happened in our own history, including government using religion/philosophy/whatever as a social control mechanism to scare people into doing what it wants them to do, and B) that regardless of which era we're talking about, there are Vulcans who do not go along with the status quo for various reasons, some for personal selfish reasons and some because they look around and what they see is wrong. Also, that I don't think BnB did anything wrong by giving a backstory that we didn't expect, because they at least showed us "okay, it was something different then, but this is how they got to where they were when you first got to know them." It would be different if they didn't explain the differences at all, and if the show had been allowed to continue, it might've been explained even more and made even more sense. Unfortunately, they never got that chance.

So sorry if I came off a bit rough.

[WarpGirl]

I got my infomation on T'Pring on ST.com. About mind-melds, they were only practiced in secret when the VHC outlawed them. The VHC only siezed power of the government, for a relative (for Vulcans anyway) short time compared to 1800 years or more. Also I don't believe anyone "goes to hell" but every action has consequences good or bad. People like the V'tosh Kat'ur are acting in a way that goes against their brain chemistry (DIFFERET SPIECES) there will be side effects. They may not be 'bad' but that doesn't mean bad things won't happen.

Finally T'Pol's actions are wrong whether you believe they're appropriate or not. The fact is she hurt Trip. She didn't intend too, thats true. But in the end that doesn't matter. I believe intent establishes whether a person has good or bad character, T'Pol has excellent character, but that doesn't mean doesn't make her actions less wrong. Mistakes are meant to be forgiven.

[Kevin Thomas Riley]

About the V'tosh Kat'ur, I see them as proto-Syrranites. I mean, they're a bunch of people that left the planet for very diverse reasons, but most of them seem to have left Vulcan for enlightment reasons, meaning that they weren't happy with the orthodox beliefs and customs.

I don't see the v'tosh ka'tur as proto-Syrrannites. While both went against their government, they did it for very different reasons.

I see the v'tosh ka'tur as more Libertarian, they want to do whatever they please, eat meat, mind meld, laugh etc. and not be constrained by Vulcan customs.

The Syrrannites on the other hand are Puritans, they want to go back to Surak's roots and that just happened to include mind melding. But since they're much more disciplined they can do that without causing damage, whereas the v'tosh ka'tur are amateurs and can cause damage (like the pa'nar syndrome) when they try it.

If anything, I'd think the v'tosh ka'tur would have an even harder time if they went back to Vulcan after T'Pau took over.

[WarpGirl]

Wow are you telepathic? You seem to be an expert at clarifying my points. The only thing the V'tosh Kat'ur and Syrranites have in common is melding.

[Asso]

So, by hook or by crook, does Vulcans' fate be to be stiff and fanatic?

[Kevin Thomas Riley]

Wow are you telepathic? You seem to be an expert at clarifying my points.

Just practicing a little mind melding...

"My mind to your mind... your thoughts to my thoughts."

[WarpGirl]

Sorry I don't meld with strangers. Can't be too careful how do I know you're not Tolaris?