Romulan war canon?

[panyasan]

I agree with Asso, the idea of Pon farr is just strange. I always have the feeling that the person who came up with the idea thought it was really "provoking" to have logical people go nuts by their sexual drive. It doesn't come off very mature for me.
But we have to live with the idea. And I do think Romulans and Vulcans are very much alike and that even Romulans have pon farr, but are not willing to make that fact very public. It could be seen as their weak spot by their enemies in their military logic.
Vulcans control their emotions by logic, Romulans by a strict militairy regime. Both are looking for control.
For me Vulcans are a highly sensitive race, they experience every thing (sound, smell, emotion) more intense then other races. Some how that doesn't fit the Romulans.
Maybe the answer is that Romulans are a mixed specie and the mixing of the species is what started their split. Between the "pure" Vulcans and the mixed Romulans. That would also explain the reaction to a human/Vulcan child.

[CX]

Actually I'm betting the line of thought for Pon farr was that since the Vulcans were so unemotional, they wouldn't have sex and thus wouldn't reproduce without something that would bring all of their repressed emotions out. And no doubt they gave it to the male of the species to be "alien" and different, because on Earth it's usually the female of the species that goes into heat.

[Asso]

... And I do think Romulans and Vulcans are very much alike. Vulcans control their emotions by logic, Romulans by a strict militairy regime. Both are looking for control

This is very acute.
Never I tought that, but it sounds decidely... logical. It makes sense. Really.

[panyasan]

Actually I'm betting the line of thought for Pon farr was that since the Vulcans were so unemotional, they wouldn't have sex and thus wouldn't reproduce without something that would bring all of their repressed emotions out. And no doubt they gave it to the male of the species to be "alien" and different, because on Earth it's usually the female of the species that goes into heat.

Eeeh... I think it is mostly the male of the species on Earth taking the initiative.

[Asso]

Actually I'm betting the line of thought for Pon farr was that since the Vulcans were so unemotional, they wouldn't have sex and thus wouldn't reproduce without something that would bring all of their repressed emotions out. And no doubt they gave it to the male of the species to be "alien" and different, because on Earth it's usually the female of the species that goes into heat.

Eeeh... I think it is mostly the male of the species on Earth taking the initiative.

Yes! And that is NOT RARELY a... little problem!

[Kevin Thomas Riley]

Well, I have a hard time buying that Romulans and Vulcans are as different as Home Erectus and Homeo Sapiens, especially given the violent nature of pre-Surakian Vulcan. With two distinct species one would undoubtedly have been wiped out, much like the Neanderthals didn't survive the encounter with the Cro Magnon.

Also, aside from the ridges (on some Rommies), there doesn't seem to be much physical difference between them. For all intent and purposes Romulans are Vulcans, just more violent ones. Which brings me back to my original question, what happened to the pon farr and the mind melding in the Romulan population?

Here are some thoughts of mine. Maybe the Romulans do experience pon farr, but since they don't suppress their emotions like Vulcans do, it's a milder version. Pre-Surakian Vulcans may also have experienced less violent pon farrs.

And maybe Romulans can mind meld, but they're just untrained and have been for generations. Remember that mind melding was even forbidden during T'Pol's time (until the Kir'Shara discovery). Maybe the original Romulans-to-be (those that "flew under the Raptor's wings") for whatever reason decided to prohibit the practice when they left Vulcan and have kept doing so for the past 2,000 years. Reintroducing it is maybe something that Spock does with the resistance.

Thoughts?

[Alelou]

I like that thinking.

Partly because it's very convenient for me.

[michelle]

well it could be that infact the romulans split from vulcan a long time before Surak got involved. But still called themselves Vulcan, still thought of Vulcan as HOME and had family links and religious and phlisophical ties to the planet. Perhaps they even left to create a more peacful society that banned mindmelding and telepathic practices for reaons that it could be catastrophic. Stone of gol and all that. TNG episode thing. I say that because i believe that Romulans are naturally far less violent and emotional than Vulcans. But the fundamentalist views of Surak got their hackles up as fundamentalist views do. perhaps they populated a neighbouring world and were causing so much trouble that vulcan banished them from light years of surrounding space.

And that banishment caused a deep seeded hatred, the militirisation of the culture could have been more due to their desire to rebuild a society on a foreign world, with out aid from home, as fast as possible so that they could return and reclaim their home world.

Pon far, does seem pretty silly when it's done in the manner it was on Enterprise. But I have read some wonderful fanfictions that have utilised it and really placed it so deeply into vulcan society in such a well thought out way that, personally, I don't think Vulcan's would be the same with out it.

I find it interesting that for the years I have hunted down Vulcan fanfiction and read reviews I can't remember people being bothered about it until it was portrayed by a female Vulcan. I don't know what the reaction was to B'Lanna Torres, I never read any thing about that. but i wonder if it was the same?

[michelle]

i also meant to say that I think that the stigmatisation of mind melding and the manipulation of suraks teachings were all the result of Romulan iinfiltration, attempting to change vulcan society to a more romulan one for reunification, and the war is started with the humans becuase they can't bloody well keep their noses out of anything lol.

[Elessar]

Actually I'm betting the line of thought for Pon farr was that since the Vulcans were so unemotional, they wouldn't have sex and thus wouldn't reproduce without something that would bring all of their repressed emotions out. And no doubt they gave it to the male of the species to be "alien" and different, because on Earth it's usually the female of the species that goes into heat.

I always thought that Pon Farr had a nice symmetry as a "remainder", in the mathematical sense. Sort of like the Architect in the Matrix argued that Neo's existence was basically the accumulated remainder of all the order and perfection of the system. In the same way, the cost of the Vulcan way of life was a period of time of, to use one of Jolene's favorite phrases, "reckless abandon." It sits well with me philosophically and biologically I think it has merit.

It's also a scenario that could simply be that Vulcans always had a mating drive, a period of time of heightened sexual energy the way just about every species on Earth has, but that it became inflamed when they started living the way they do, resisting all emotional or hormonal reactions.

And by the way - here's a question for the aether that I think has an answer that pokes a bit of a hole in the Roddenburry ideal of how Vulcans act -- 'Is there a difference between hormones & emotions?' I think there is. I think Vulcans should consider themselves allowed to indulge their hormones and not have it be considered an emotional indulgence. IMO they're different things.

[Elessar]

Well, I have a hard time buying that Romulans and Vulcans are as different as Home Erectus and Homeo Sapiens, especially given the violent nature of pre-Surakian Vulcan. With two distinct species one would undoubtedly have been wiped out, much like the Neanderthals didn't survive the encounter with the Cro Magnon.

Also, aside from the ridges (on some Rommies), there doesn't seem to be much physical difference between them. For all intent and purposes Romulans are Vulcans, just more violent ones. Which brings me back to my original question, what happened to the pon farr and the mind melding in the Romulan population?

Here are some thoughts of mine. Maybe the Romulans do experience pon farr, but since they don't suppress their emotions like Vulcans do, it's a milder version. Pre-Surakian Vulcans may also have experienced less violent pon farrs.

And maybe Romulans can mind meld, but they're just untrained and have been for generations. Remember that mind melding was even forbidden during T'Pol's time (until the Kir'Shara discovery). Maybe the original Romulans-to-be (those that "flew under the Raptor's wings") for whatever reason decided to prohibit the practice when they left Vulcan and have kept doing so for the past 2,000 years. Reintroducing it is maybe something that Spock does with the resistance.

Thoughts?

Here's a problem we can't even blame on poor canon in Enterprise (because it was TNG writers) -- What about the Remans?

There's no way 2000 yrs is enough time for a genetic split to have taken place between Romulans and Remans... I prefer the explanation that wherever Romulans settled after leaving Vulcan, there just so happened to be Remans on the moon. It WAS the moon, right? As explained in Nemesis, I mean.

I don't think the violence of pre-Surak Vulcans says anything about the possibility that there's a genetic difference between Vulcans and Romulans, though. I mean there's nothing glaringly wrong with the argument that there ISN'T a genetic difference, it's just that to me, the mass exodus makes more sense if there was.

But I'm not suggesting that this difference is to explain why Vulcans are pacifist and Romulans aren't. They both very well could have shared this aggressive trait, in fact maybe Vulcans are by nature more aggressive than Romulans, and this is why they felt it necessary to hold it back and Romulans didn't. I mean this is almost a given if you just think it through - there's no way, based on what we are led to believe about pre-Surak Vulcans, that what we see of the Romulans is the equivalent of what Vulcans would be without emotional repression. I mean, I thought pre-Surak Vulcans were supposed to be like... well almost as bad as the Vulcan Zombies on the Seleya. Like maybe a cross between Genghis Khan's disposition and that of the average Celt. I see Romulans as pretty mellow and cunning... They seem to share a similar disposition w/ Cardassians, actually.

[Kevin Thomas Riley]

There's no way 2000 yrs is enough time for a genetic split to have taken place between Romulans and Remans... I prefer the explanation that wherever Romulans settled after leaving Vulcan, there just so happened to be Remans on the moon. It WAS the moon, right? As explained in Nemesis, I mean.

Twin planet, actually. Or maybe just another populated planet orbiting the Romulan star. I think NEM showed that on some map, but I'm not about to find that DVD and check it out.

But I do agree that the Remans are indigenous to that planet, Remus, and that they in all likelihood weren't space faring before the would-be Romulans arrived (otherwise they'd be stupid if they didn't relocate to the much more hospitable Romulus).

But I'm not suggesting that this difference is to explain why Vulcans are pacifist and Romulans aren't. They both very well could have shared this aggressive trait, in fact maybe Vulcans are by nature more aggressive than Romulans, and this is why they felt it necessary to hold it back and Romulans didn't. I mean this is almost a given if you just think it through - there's no way, based on what we are led to believe about pre-Surak Vulcans, that what we see of the Romulans is the equivalent of what Vulcans would be without emotional repression. I mean, I thought pre-Surak Vulcans were supposed to be like... well almost as bad as the Vulcan Zombies on the Seleya. Like maybe a cross between Genghis Khan's disposition and that of the average Celt. I see Romulans as pretty mellow and cunning... They seem to share a similar disposition w/ Cardassians, actually.

I don't think Vulcan, even pre-Surakian Vulcan, would be a viable civilization if they all behaved like those Vulcan zombies. As far as their emotional control, I tend to think that while Vulcans use suppression, the Romulans use militaristic discipline. They keep their violent tendencies in check by channeling them through the way they organize their society. And their society probably has many traits deriving from the hardships suffered in the wilderness after being expelled from Vulcan and searching for a new home - the home that they eventually found on Romulus.

[KKGlinka]

I noticed they say Romulans don't have Pon farr.

Um, well, I just finished reading "Vulcan's Heart" and while Romulans might not have pon farr, they definitely a) recognize the symptoms and b) a character refers to some Romulan woman suffering such a condition (as he's preparing to rape Saavik). Ew. Anyway, they seem to refer to the condition simple as "the fires", etc.

My theory is that, from an evolutionary stand-point, there's no way they could have lost such a basic reproductive cycle. It's more likely that because they practice casual sex, they don't get pent up and repressed like the average Vulcan might. So a Romulan might go through pon farr and not really notice. *shrugs*

[KKGlinka]

And maybe Romulans can mind meld, but they're just untrained and have been for generations.

That's how it's handled in the novels. They do have telepathic abilities, but no one was trained for ages, except sporadically within the security department and later, the tal shiar. It's often used as the explanation for why they succumb so easily to group paranoia and anger - because the unchecked emotional projection is shared and amplified. Over in the Rihannsu 'verse by Diane Duane, they even have words for "bondmate" and such, suggesting again, telepathic/empathic capacity.

As for the Remans, there's a brill trilogy called "Vulcan's Soul" that covers the exodus of the Romulans from Vulcan, the tribal in-fighting, genetic engineering, back-stabbing treachery and utter tragedy that created that vulcanoid slave-caste. It was depressing, but well written.

Of course, if we're not taking books into consideration, then there's diddly squat to go on and Romulans are just those thuggish, mustache twirling ebil villains who show up to be convenient plot devices.

[Aquarius]

I'm glad this discussion is here, because part of the difficulty I have when I write Trek any more is that there are elements of Enterprise that seem in conflict with earlier (mostly TOS) canon and generally-accepted fan lore of the time.

I have a few questions of my own, and though they don't pertain specifically to the Romulans, they do touch on things like mind melds, pon farr, and other matters that have been mentioned here, so I hope it's okay to ask them in this thread without seeming to blow it off-topic.

As for pon farr, most fans I've come in contact with seem to have been operating under the assumption that it was kind of the tradeoff for living a life of order and logic, that their minds and bodies just kind of adapted to their lives of repression, so this seven-year "pressure valve" came into being so that A) they could get all the crazy stuff out of their systems every so often and B) so they wouldn't logic themselves into extinction, so this would help to guarantee procreation. (Okay, I know that this isn't so much a question, but if there's a huge hole in that reasoning, or if it no longer works by Enterprise standards, I'd like to know, and why.)

Related to this is the Vulcan wedding. In TOS (and again adopted by fan lore) we get the impression that it is the pon farr that motivates the actual wedding that is supposed to happen between Spock and T'Pring, and it would have, had she not pulled the bitch-move of challenging her betrothal and choosing Kirk as her champion. Much fan lore I've seen suggests that at this point, whether she ended up with Spock or Stonn, a marriage/bonding ceremony would take place--one that involves a type of mind meld--and then the lovely couple would be sent home and left to do whatever they do behind closed doors.

Except at T'Pol's wedding, both she and Koss seem to be in possession of all their marbles; no one is going crazy with the "blood fever." So what's the norm in Vulcan culture: weddings without pon farr, or weddings with? And if it was different in T'Pol's time than it was in Spock's, what would cause that change? In TOS, you definitely get the impression that everything they do and believe is, well, ancient, so part of me has a hard time buying that about 100 years is enough to cause that kind of shift.

As for whether Romulans have pon farr or not, I personally haven't pondered it much, but I find it feasible that they do have it, but maybe to a much more minor degree because they don't keep things all pent up all the time. They don't display the same aggression as the Vulcan zombies, but they are violent in their own crafty, sneaky way.