Spock and T'Pol conjectures

[Asso]

Me too, and - I don't remember where - I have told you something about it.

[michelle]

I've never had a problem with linking TNG DS9 and VOY era with TOS and TOS with ENT. I always thought it was plausible and kinda cool for people to idealize earlier crews, and especially if they are the FIRST crew ever to venture that far into space. I can imagine that Spock would have read up a lot about T'Pol for example and been very influenced by her.

But I have to agree with some points regarding trying to link Spock and T'Pol by family. I think they are just two very different types of Vulcan. Personally I've always felt that T'Pau was related to Sarek and Spock and there was never any mention of familial bond between T'Pau and T'Mum. T'Pau and Sarek both were extremely strict on themselves and traditionalist almost like they feel they have to set an example for the rest of Vulcan. Just thinking about the clues left concenerning how harshly Spock was brought up makes you realize the level of commitment they have to the true Vulcan path. Spock was brought up to shun all things human and totally focus on the vulcan path where as TnT's son was given a choise about how much of his heritage he would absorb and then came to a balance between both. Fair enough his was brought up on an earth ship among humans but if T'Pol felt that deeply that A Vulcan must control their emotions she would have made it happen and Trip would have understood.

T'Pol and her Mother just seem a whole lot less sure about it all, they are a lot more open minded and flexible, willing to compromise on ideals they don't like and focus on the ones they do, and they are a whole lot more emotional perhaps because they don't feel they have the weight of Vulcan on their shoulders.

I suppose this discrepancy in core perspective of the Vulcan way can be put down to the fact that T'Pol comes from a line that descends from a black sheep of the family but I think it's more likely that they are just not related.

T'Pau and T'Mum were colleagues and perhaps friends but I think thats as far as it went. I can imagine Sarek being told of T'Pol and her Human mate and probably getting weirded out by the idea as a kid. But also after falling for Amanda the knowledge of the fact that it has historically been proved Vulcans and Humans are compatible does give him confidence in his choice.

[Asso]

I agree with you almost about every thing.
In any case, one thing is sure. Spock is the son of a Human female and of a Vulcan male, and it's impossible to not believe he is perfectly conscious that Trip and T'Pol opened the road.

[Pitseleh]

Well, perhaps Trip and T'Pol never went very public with their relationship. I've always thought that while they did remain together 'til death did them part in Trip's old age, they might have chosen to keep things extremely low key to avid problems such as Terra Prime or press harrassment or bureocracy or whatever. When they were ready to have children, they went to Phlox for discreet help. And so on, and so on... And so, they woud become a legend, the sort of story to which everyone has their own version. Perhaps Spock was dead set n knowing the real story behind all the legends.

Seeing T'Les on more episodes might have helped figure some stuff out. In Home, she was hard to read. She seemed to come down hard on T'Pol at first, but then we saw a softer side. She does tell T'Pol that her emotions have always been close to the surface, but we never learn if T'Pol's father or T'Les did anything about that. And she does warn T'Pol about what her children would "suffer" if she was to mate with Trip. When we see her again, she is hiding in the desert with a bunch of Vulcans that while they were correct in their "beliefs", were also considered rebels and outcasts among their society. And her final wors to T'Pol have more acceptance than anything we heard in Home. To me, it's been hard to figure out T'Les' real personality because of this.

Spock's relationship with his dad is pretty complicated too (yeah, I know, understatement of the week). Sarek was willing to marry his Human wife, but his son was to be raised strictly Vulcan. Poor Spock must have had a seriously rough adolescence.

If you're a Vulcan serving on a ship called Enterprise, you're bound to have family issues.

[Asso]

Well, perhaps Trip and T'Pol never went very public with their relationship. I've always thought that while they did remain together 'til death did them part in Trip's old age, they might have chosen to keep things extremely low key to avid problems such as Terra Prime or press harrassment or bureocracy or whatever. When they were ready to have children, they went to Phlox for discreet help. And so on, and so on... And so, they woud become a legend, the sort of story to which everyone has their own version. Perhaps Spock was dead set n knowing the real story behind all the legends.

You are right.
Here there's the point.

[Elessar]

I've never had a problem with linking TNG DS9 and VOY era with TOS and TOS with ENT. I always thought it was plausible and kinda cool for people to idealize earlier crews, and especially if they are the FIRST crew ever to venture that far into space. I can imagine that Spock would have read up a lot about T'Pol for example and been very influenced by her.

But I have to agree with some points regarding trying to link Spock and T'Pol by family. I think they are just two very different types of Vulcan. Personally I've always felt that T'Pau was related to Sarek and Spock and there was never any mention of familial bond between T'Pau and T'Mum. T'Pau and Sarek both were extremely strict on themselves and traditionalist almost like they feel they have to set an example for the rest of Vulcan. Just thinking about the clues left concenerning how harshly Spock was brought up makes you realize the level of commitment they have to the true Vulcan path. Spock was brought up to shun all things human and totally focus on the vulcan path where as TnT's son was given a choise about how much of his heritage he would absorb and then came to a balance between both. Fair enough his was brought up on an earth ship among humans but if T'Pol felt that deeply that A Vulcan must control their emotions she would have made it happen and Trip would have understood.

T'Pol and her Mother just seem a whole lot less sure about it all, they are a lot more open minded and flexible, willing to compromise on ideals they don't like and focus on the ones they do, and they are a whole lot more emotional perhaps because they don't feel they have the weight of Vulcan on their shoulders.

I suppose this discrepancy in core perspective of the Vulcan way can be put down to the fact that T'Pol comes from a line that descends from a black sheep of the family but I think it's more likely that they are just not related.

T'Pau and T'Mum were colleagues and perhaps friends but I think thats as far as it went. I can imagine Sarek being told of T'Pol and her Human mate and probably getting weirded out by the idea as a kid. But also after falling for Amanda the knowledge of the fact that it has historically been proved Vulcans and Humans are compatible does give him confidence in his choice.

The only reason I would disagree with this is b/c originally T'Pau was to be the T'Pau from TOS (also mentioned in TNG) and I don't think they ever intended to say T'Pau and Sarek were related, because there were so many opportunities to do so in both TOS and TNG since the TOS T'Pau officiated his defunked wedding and such. I was just reading on Memory Alpha that they didn't "decide" to make T'Pau THE T'Pau basically just because if they "officially" did, they'd have to pay the original writer loyalties every time they used her name. If that isn't retarded. So basically though, for all creative purposes, it should be treated that she is.

Well, perhaps Trip and T'Pol never went very public with their relationship. I've always thought that while they did remain together 'til death did them part in Trip's old age, they might have chosen to keep things extremely low key to avid problems such as Terra Prime or press harrassment or bureocracy or whatever. When they were ready to have children, they went to Phlox for discreet help. And so on, and so on... And so, they woud become a legend, the sort of story to which everyone has their own version. Perhaps Spock was dead set n knowing the real story behind all the legends.

Seeing T'Les on more episodes might have helped figure some stuff out. In Home, she was hard to read. She seemed to come down hard on T'Pol at first, but then we saw a softer side. She does tell T'Pol that her emotions have always been close to the surface, but we never learn if T'Pol's father or T'Les did anything about that. And she does warn T'Pol about what her children would "suffer" if she was to mate with Trip. When we see her again, she is hiding in the desert with a bunch of Vulcans that while they were correct in their "beliefs", were also considered rebels and outcasts among their society. And her final wors to T'Pol have more acceptance than anything we heard in Home. To me, it's been hard to figure out T'Les' real personality because of this.

I never liked the idea that they wouldn't be able to be public about it ever. Trip is a loving a supportive person, but honestly I think he's too "normal" to live like this for any period of time. It would drive you insane.

I see it as more likely that Trip would be the one to decide to just tack into the wind and what happens happens. When they have children, he would no doubt become more concerned since there is more on the line than just themselves, but I think after trying the undercover life for like 6 months, Trip would really get weary of it. For some reason, I think T'Pol could do it easier than Trip could. For one, she presumably doesn't have any family left - because if she did, living this way would make it near impossible to see them without great complication, and certainly not with Trip by her side. That's what would be one of the biggest problems for Trip.

I think Trip's a normal guy who needs a normal sit-down life when he gets older, even if he didn't retire for quite some time, I think once he did that's what he'd be like.

Btw something I never thought of before - Trip would be eligible for retirement in the middle of the war - 2159, when he's 38. Because he "joined Starfleet" at 18. (Avoiding using the term 'enlisted' so people don't argue )

[Alelou]

"Retirement" may be quite a different concept by then, especially since life spans tend to increase over time. After working on variable annuity products for the last few months I can tell you that it's not unusual for people to live longer in retirement than they did on the job. In fact, statistically, for any given married couple in the US there's a more than 50% chance that one of them will live into their nineties. Presumably in the future that will be even more likely. So things like how our society treats retirement are likely to adjust.

I agree with you about Trip's preferences, but I also see him as pretty flexible and resilient. I certainly think he could work himself around to staying under the radar if there was a good reason for it.

[michelle]

The only reason I would disagree with this is b/c originally T'Pau was to be the T'Pau from TOS (also mentioned in TNG) and I don't think they ever intended to say T'Pau and Sarek were related, because there were so many opportunities to do so in both TOS and TNG since the TOS T'Pau officiated his defunked wedding and such. I was just reading on Memory Alpha that they didn't "decide" to make T'Pau THE T'Pau basically just because if they "officially" did, they'd have to pay the original writer loyalties every time they used her name. If that isn't retarded. So basically though, for all creative purposes, it should be treated that she is.

I may very well be mixing up fan fiction and canon here, but I'm sure that during Spock's wedding Kirk mentions to McCoy that he didn't know Spock's family was so ...high ranking... or something like that, in regards to seeing T'Pau officiating the wedding.

I'm for saying she is THE T'Pau too.

This is an awful thing to admit since TNG and Vulcans are what I love most about Trek, but I can't ever remember T'Pau being mentioned in it :s. What episode is that?

[michelle]

Seeing T'Les on more episodes might have helped figure some stuff out. In Home, she was hard to read. She seemed to come down hard on T'Pol at first, but then we saw a softer side. She does tell T'Pol that her emotions have always been close to the surface, but we never learn if T'Pol's father or T'Les did anything about that. And she does warn T'Pol about what her children would "suffer" if she was to mate with Trip. When we see her again, she is hiding in the desert with a bunch of Vulcans that while they were correct in their "beliefs", were also considered rebels and outcasts among their society. And her final wors to T'Pol have more acceptance than anything we heard in Home. To me, it's been hard to figure out T'Les' real personality because of this.

Yes, she is hard to read, that's kind of what I mean in a way. Her beliefs and path isn't clear because she's not bound to it, I imagine that if the Syranite way didn't work out for her or particularly for T'Pol she'd be willing to research other interpretations and dabble in something else. T'Pol is much the same. If you compare them with T'Pau who isn't hard to read at all, even though she was a rebel at the time she was still totally dedicated to finding the Kir'shara and reforming Vulcan, you can imagine her parents were probably as well, it's her life's focus to follow Surak's path and once found you can imagine her following it to the letter.

[Elessar]

"Retirement" may be quite a different concept by then, especially since life spans tend to increase over time. After working on variable annuity products for the last few months I can tell you that it's not unusual for people to live longer in retirement than they did on the job. In fact, statistically, for any given married couple in the US there's a more than 50% chance that one of them will live into their nineties. Presumably in the future that will be even more likely. So things like how our society treats retirement are likely to adjust.

Yeah but "retirement" in the sense of no longer working and accepting social security and generally being over 65 and all that is a little different from "retirement" from the military, which has always been after 20 years of active duty. Do you think they'd change it, make it longer if life expectancy went up? I don't know. That seems kind douchebaggy actually, .

Here's a question for Dis that's related to this issue: Has the increase in life spans actually lead to a broadening of the period of years in one's life in which one is physically and mentally fit? As in, if we start living to be 105 on average (which is about 30 years longer than today's average) does that mean people will be physically and mentally fit for an average of 30 years longer, or even if it doesn't increase linearly, by even 5 or 10 years longer? My instinct says no... that if you live to be 105, you just steadily decrease in mental and physical fitness from your prime until you die, so you just decrease longer before you actually die, as opposed to being mentally and physically fit longer, but I could be wrong. I guess to answer the question you'd have to look at whether there are people who are healthy and quick until the day of their death of natural causes at 55, and similarly if there are people who lose physical and mental quickness early, like say 50, but just kinda drag on until they're 100. Or if, generally, when you live to be 100, it means you're mentally and physically fit until you're 75 or 80 instead of 55 or 60 for those who die at 65 or 70.

Sorry if I offended anyone's age, just thinking about how this might go.

Interestingly, I don't know if this has anything to do with this process or is any way related, but there are statistics that show that soldiers in combat who have survived their first 3 force-on-force encounters are something like 5 times more likely to survive the next one than people who are experiencing their 1st, 2nd, or 3rd. In other words, it's like you become acclimated to the mental strain and you keep your shit together better once you've been through it. I don't know, probably unrelated.

The only reason I would disagree with this is b/c originally T'Pau was to be the T'Pau from TOS (also mentioned in TNG) and I don't think they ever intended to say T'Pau and Sarek were related, because there were so many opportunities to do so in both TOS and TNG since the TOS T'Pau officiated his defunked wedding and such. I was just reading on Memory Alpha that they didn't "decide" to make T'Pau THE T'Pau basically just because if they "officially" did, they'd have to pay the original writer loyalties every time they used her name. If that isn't retarded. So basically though, for all creative purposes, it should be treated that she is.

I may very well be mixing up fan fiction and canon here, but I'm sure that during Spock's wedding Kirk mentions to McCoy that he didn't know Spock's family was so ...high ranking... or something like that, in regards to seeing T'Pau officiating the wedding.

I'm for saying she is THE T'Pau too.

This is an awful thing to admit since TNG and Vulcans are what I love most about Trek, but I can't ever remember T'Pau being mentioned in it :s. What episode is that?

Well if you've watched more than like 10 TOS episodes, you know it better than me... I think it's Amok Time though, isn't it? I just read the MemoryAlpha on Spock and T'Pau and it never mentioned them being related.

[Kevin Thomas Riley]

^ It's Amok Time and T'Pau isn't just mentioned in it. She's a guest star (played by Celia Lovsky).

I tend to view T'Pau as a relative to Sarek, like the head of the family clan or something. They could be very distant cousins. But I don't think T'Pau was related to T'Pol's family. Just my opinion.

[Alelou]

Re the old age thing, if you can avoid the illnesses or attitudes that result in becoming sedentary, you can probably have a good quality of life and mental ability for quite a long time. Once you become sedentary, time is not your friend. But Dis would know better than me.

The survivor statistics make sense to me. Back 200 years ago when the average lifespan was 44 or something like that, once you got past childhood illnesses and childbirth, you had a good shot at living quite a long time. If you're a soldier who's figured out how to survive three battles by whatever means, it can only get easier.

[CX]

I honestly don't understand to make such forced and contrived connections between characters from the difference eras or series. In all honesty, since Archer and the NX-01 never came up in the "later" stuff, they should have approached it from the angle of the ship and her crew essentially being forgotten to history. Coto made a subtle hint at this, but he never had a chance to really address it.

As for one of Spock's ancestors spouting off a quote from Sherlock Holmes, I think you're all forgetting something - Solkar was the first Vulcan ambassador to Earth, and he was an ancestor of Spock's. T'Pau even goes back along the line from Sarek, to Skon, to Solkar. Now, it stands to reason that as an ambassador to Earth that he would have picked up on some of the local wisdom, and he might have even adopted some of it as part of his own logical reasoning. You also have to remember that at the beginning of ST6, Spock said that the saying "only Nixon can go to China" was an ancient Vulcan proverb.

[Alelou]

You also have to remember that at the beginning of ST6, Spock said that the saying "only Nixon can go to China" was an ancient Vulcan proverb.

Further proof that the movies often reached for popular humor at the expense of canon or believability. It was indeed a great line, but that's because it was so comically absurd. And you know what, that's okay. It's a movie based on a science fiction TV show, it ain't the freakin' Bible.

Just because they didn't write Enterprise until AFTER they wrote TOS, TNG, etc., etc., doesn't mean we have to now pretend the NX-01 was inconsequential to the Star Trek universe. By that argument, Paramount should never have had anything important to earth or the galaxy occur during Enterprise. The Xindi could never have been written because we'd never heard of them before. And I think that's just ridiculous. Do you want an interesting show with surprises of its own or just a wan collection of limp prequel plots that will meet with the approval of the most rigid fans?

[CX]

Further proof that the movies often reached for popular humor at the expense of canon or believability. It was indeed a great line, but that's because it was so comically absurd. And you know what, that's okay. It's a movie based on a science fiction TV show, it ain't the freakin' Bible.

So? And the point I was making there is that Spock was obviously being a smartass in at least that case, so it could just as easily be why he used a Holmsian reference later on, since most human characters in Star Trek are usually portrayed as being pretty ignorant of their own history.

Just because they didn't write Enterprise until AFTER they wrote TOS, TNG, etc., etc., doesn't mean we have to now pretend the NX-01 was inconsequential to the Star Trek universe.

Two things. First, being forgotten to history wouldn't make them inconsequential. Sometimes that's just how things turn out. Second, it's important when making a prequel or even when making a sequel to work within the confines of what has previously been established, and that goes for any franchise.

By that argument, Paramount should never have had anything important to earth or the galaxy occur during Enterprise.

Exactly. Or at least nothing that couldn't be overshadowed by the Earth/Romulan War. Since we knew Earth and the galaxy would still be around in the "later" series, any storylines along those lines would come off as forced and contrived, just like it really did when they did the Xindi arc. Instead, the show should've been about the characters, because we didn't know if they'd come through whatever came up or not, which would've been emphasized if any of the main characters actually ended up being killed or otherwise left the crew. As an aside, this is also a weakness of the Trek formula of only focusing on a set of 6-7 main characters. DS9 was somewhat better about this because it had a number of recurring characters, which they actually did kill. Not to mention Jadzia, which, while it could have been done better, was used at least marginally well to advance a storyline.

The Xindi could never have been written because we'd never heard of them before.

Yep, shouldn't have been done. While S3 stands out as probably ENT's best, it was because of the character development, not the Xindi storyline. This is also a big part of why Twilight sucks so completely, because we already knew that Earth wasn't going to really get destroyed. Seeing it on screen in the episode's teaser just let us know that a reset button would get pushed at the end of it.

And I think that's just ridiculous. Do you want an interesting show with surprises of its own or just a wan collection of limp prequel plots that will meet with the approval of the most rigid fans?

I hate to break it to you, but ENT was a collection of limp prequel plots. The premise was interesting, and there were some things they got right and worked, but overwhelmingly the series really wasn't that good, and it utterly failed as a prequel.

And not to come off as plugging my own work, but if you really want to see how I think things should've been done, read Foundations. While it has some references to things in the "later" Trek series, it focuses on establishing itself in the 22nd century, and on the characters living during that time.