Expectations for T'Pol

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Re: Expectations for T'Pol

Postby panyasan » Mon May 12, 2008 6:43 pm

Alelou wrote:Trip argues furiously with Archer in Daedalus -- with good reason.

He argues more good-naturedly with him in Desert Crossing.

I saw them as genuinely good friends brought together by work but also separated by rank and the demands of command.

I also think that Trip and Archer had different ideas about several issues concerning the ship. You see sometimes that he teams up with T'pol to get Archer to listen to take a different course. In A night in sickbay first you see Archer talk to Trip and after that T'pol is always saying Commander Tucker needs that material, so please do what that species want for us etc. At the end when Archer is doing his ritual (finally) to please the alliens and Trip has the material he needs for the engines, he and T'pol share a sort of look like we got Archer where we wanted and boy, what a job.
In Shockwave T'pol says to Trip that she is probably unsuccesfull to reach him, Trip goes to Archer to talk and watch waterpolo.
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Re: Expectations for T'Pol

Postby Asso » Mon May 12, 2008 7:17 pm

A lot of opportunities have been thrown away.
Well yes. I continue to write. And on Fanfiction.Net, for those who want, it is possible to cast a glance at my latest efforts. We arrived to
The Ears of the Elves, chapter Forty-four


And here is the beginning of the whole story.
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Re: Expectations for T'Pol

Postby WarpGirl » Mon Apr 27, 2009 8:21 pm

Well I expected T'Pol to behave like a Vulcan, Sarek and Spock were my basis for determining proper Vulcans so I was devastated from "Broken Bow" onward. However B-B destroyed all Vulcans not just her. Honestly in the beginning I thought she was quite rude and not because of culture differences. Vulcans as a society value courtesy and none of the Vulcans showed even the slightest bit of it to anyone. To be fair I thought both Archer and Trip behaved abominably for so-called "enlightened" human beings. But Trip had the decency to recognize his behavior need changing after "Breaking The Ice," and that's when I started wanting a romance. I knew that it would happen in "Broken Bow" but I wasn't thrilled about it at first. I thought after a while T'Pol would get better and Trip would grow up. Unfortunately I gave up watching during the second season because I hated Archer so badly. So low and behold I start reading about drug addictions one-night-stands and other horrific UnVulcan behavior and I nearly went crazy. But I discovered HoT and decided this was much better. After I found TriS I decided to try and watch again. Now I'm writing here, isn't life strange.

Sarek and Spock were both logical orderly and held high principles. While T'Pol gets points for intelligence and critical thinking skills, she doesn't seem to know herself at all. In the first season she's put into a quandary, between human and Vulcan prejudices. Vulcans as a whole are deceitful, arrogant, and downright dishonorable. Therefore T'Pol finds herself ostracized because she supported the humans. All of this was ridiculous and the beginning of her humanization. The whole idea is preposterous. If B-B wanted to do the whole thing with Surak's true teachings they could have written T'Pol as a proper Vulcan like Sarek or Spock and left the other Vulcans as they were.

The problem is that when Vulcans say they "do not experience emotions," they don't mean it literally. What they're saying is they don't experience them in the same way as humans. Vulcans do have emotions, if they didn't they wouldn't need logic. B-B's mistake with T'Pol's emotions is that they wanted her to experience them in the "human way." It ruined T'Pol's character and almost completely destroyed the TnT romance for me. I think it would have been so much more compelling had she been allowed to truly be herself. A real IDIC. If they had written her in the same vein as Sarek in "Search For Spock" it would have been so much better. That was the behavior I expected for T'Pol.
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Re: Expectations for T'Pol

Postby Asso » Mon Apr 27, 2009 8:53 pm

I can understand your expectations, but don't forget: what we love in Vulcans is to see something Human in them, and T'Pol is lovely, for me, because she appears strong, yes, but also breakable.
And then I must say something: but can someone believe that Vulcans can be not Humans? Those who devised them were Humans, and there's no way. We can't think as we were Aliens, so our personages are inevitably Human, and I think we love them because they are a mirror of ourselves.
Well yes. I continue to write. And on Fanfiction.Net, for those who want, it is possible to cast a glance at my latest efforts. We arrived to
The Ears of the Elves, chapter Forty-four


And here is the beginning of the whole story.
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But, I must say, you could also find something else on Fanfiction.net written by me. If you want.

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Re: Expectations for T'Pol

Postby WarpGirl » Mon Apr 27, 2009 10:18 pm

I believe that Vulcans have qualities in common with our own of course the mind that devised them was a human mind. One of the themes of ST is that there are things that are universal. The point is that these things are inherent despite and because of differences. But we're not supposed to view alien cultures from our own points of view. And Vulcans are aliens and therefore different.
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Re: Expectations for T'Pol

Postby michelle » Mon Apr 27, 2009 10:22 pm

I Agree with WarpGirls points, but now i have reconciled my grief over the destruction of Vulcan society in ENT because of the "Vulcan Arc" and kirshara.

I like to think that Vulcans preKirshara, were not using the proper techniques when controlling their emotions, not meditating properly, although it was successful in controlling their temper, for the most part, it was pretty shabby control, almost play acting. I think any Vulcan in that era that could have stayed on a human ship long enough would have been deeply affected by the human crew and it would have caused deep confusion.

This is how i get around the inconsistency between Sarek and T'Pol, Soval, Kov, TLes. (I'm not counting Spock since he's half human)

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Re: Expectations for T'Pol

Postby Asso » Mon Apr 27, 2009 10:25 pm

Honestly I have to say Vulcans are physically painted too much similar to us.
It's impossible to be really different, in this case: scientifically, they must be practically as us, even in their way to think. Only some difference because of the different world where they evolved.
But also about that there're many doubts.
Well yes. I continue to write. And on Fanfiction.Net, for those who want, it is possible to cast a glance at my latest efforts. We arrived to
The Ears of the Elves, chapter Forty-four


And here is the beginning of the whole story.
Image

But, I must say, you could also find something else on Fanfiction.net written by me. If you want.

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Re: Expectations for T'Pol

Postby anaM » Tue Apr 28, 2009 12:06 pm

I agree that Vulcans and all the humanoid aliens we see on Star Trek have too many things in common with us. They are made to mirror us, to show different aspects of humanity and at the end, this endless number of alien species and their characteristics is nothing more than another way to understand what it is to be human.

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Re: Expectations for T'Pol

Postby Aquarius » Tue Apr 28, 2009 2:48 pm

anaM wrote:I agree that Vulcans and all the humanoid aliens we see on Star Trek have too many things in common with us. They are made to mirror us, to show different aspects of humanity and at the end, this endless number of alien species and their characteristics is nothing more than another way to understand what it is to be human.


Well, that's kind of been the point of Star Trek since Roddenberry created it. It's also one of the reasons sci-fi purists would classify it as "space opera" instead of "science fiction." The core of the stories have always been about what's going on with humanity; you could swap out the spaceships and ray guns for horses and six shooters and be able to tell basically the same story. Gene himself has said as much that this was all window dressing, however the trappings of a futuristic setting allowed him to tell the stories he wanted to tell, because nobody really freaked out about taboo/hot-button topics of the times if it was happening to aliens and humans were the "good guys" serving as the moral compass. And the humans of Star Trek didn't represent us as we were when the show was written, they were intended to show us what we could be. The alien races were often used to show us how we really are as a society, or at least different aspects of us.

So while Spock and Sarek are our "baseline" Vulcans, I would have to say that just like with humans, individual mileage varies, so I'm okay with seeing a Vulcan like T'Pol having a bit of an identity crisis. She lands an assignment on a ship full of people who constantly challenge her world view...and remember, Vulcan society was a little different when she was growing up than when Sarek and Spock came along; Sarek and Spock are now I guess what you'd call "post-revolution" Vulcans, so it's not necessarily fair to compare T'Pol or her contemporaries to them--it would be like faulting my Depression-era grandma for not behaving and thinking the way I do, 'cause a lot's changed since she was my age and we're all products of A) what we've been indoctrinated with and B) personal experience. T'Pol wasn't just affected by it, she was partly responsible for bringing it on. In some ways she represents the bra-burners of the 70s--she says no to marriage and the gender roles her society has imposed upon her (Vulcan females are the property of their male mates, right?) in order to pursue her career and fulfill her life the way she wants it. T'Pol herself is a metaphor for what's going on on her planet at the time, because she's from a society that's based on a corrupt government that's lied to its people (P'Jem, anyone?), and used fear and repression to control its population in the guise of religion/philosophy (keeping the masses ignorant of what the Kir'Shara really says, convincing everyone that melders are a perversion and a threat, etc.).

So that said, I won't accuse her of being "not Vulcan enough," because Vulcan society as a whole seems to be reinventing and finding itself during this time. Now that I've seen every single episode at least once (and at least half of them 2-6 times, depending on the episode), I see a woman who questions everything she once believed and is trying to find out who she really is, and is often in conflict because it isn't who she's "supposed" to be...something I'm sure most of us go through at some point in our lives, and I don't think Vulcans are immune to that necessarily, otherwise you wouldn't have factions that pick up and leave and become Romulans, or go hide out in the desert in search of the truth of what their greatest philosopher really taught, or Vulcans who pack up a ship and smile and eat chicken. T'Pol is just another one who didn't go along with the program, though she spent a lot of time fighting that.
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Re: Expectations for T'Pol

Postby WarpGirl » Tue Apr 28, 2009 3:42 pm

I agree with a lot of what you've said truly. But I have problems with the way they handled all of it. I like the idea that the Vulcan govt. was corrupt and destroying the true heritage of its people. That being said T'Pol's conflicts could have been handled in ways that foreshadowed the coming revolution. For example, in "Home" she marries Koss to save her mother's position in Vulcan society, but we have no idea that T'Les is actually a Syrranite. Or that the Kir'Shara is even an issue. We don't know that there will be a revolution. All we know is that T'Pol hasn't towed the party line and is in disgrace. If they had put it out there that the Vulcans were going to undergo this change, instead of having a lot of bigoted immature arguments on both sides, from the beginning a lot of T'Pol's conflicts would have made sense. I'm sorry but it doesn't excuse the drug stuff.
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Re: Expectations for T'Pol

Postby Escriba » Tue Apr 28, 2009 4:16 pm

I think nothing excuses the drug issue. At least, how it was handled. It could be better (not by much, but still...) if T'Pol had begun using trellium because she was aware that an Enterprise covered by it would have more chances to success than one that wasn't. Archer thought about leaving her on a planet (whatever he told her later), so she would think: "Maybe I can resolve the issue." It would be even better if using trellium would get her real advantages, like being able to control her emotions without meditation (and making her being able to work restlessly for hours at the same time.) And the best thing of all would be if some writer would have foreshadowed the entire damn thing!

And I'm with WarpGirl, the writers should have handled better the existence of a revolution (or some kind of disagreement) between the Vulcans. That would have turned the "Vulcan arch" into an amazing storyline.
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Re: Expectations for T'Pol

Postby WarpGirl » Tue Apr 28, 2009 4:26 pm

YEY I am not alone!
Some of these people haven't taken their medication. Let's see what happens now...
Donna Moss: The West Wing


And by people WG had herself in mind, but then the quote would have been ruined.
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Re: Expectations for T'Pol

Postby Asso » Tue Apr 28, 2009 7:18 pm

WarpGirl wrote:YEY I am not alone!

Did you think you were alone? :lol:
Anyway I want to make precise my statement.
When I said Vulcans are too much similar to us I wanted to say exactly that: they can see things from different points of view, but basically they are us.
When I talk to someone who comes from a distant country, I sense - obviously - that his culture and his own background put some obstacles between us, but - in reality - the perception and the brain mechanism are the same.
Now, there's a unbreakable and deep connection between body and mind: if body is human, mind is human.
I hope I'm clear: Vulcans have human body, consequently they have human mind.
They can't be alien in their behaviours and in their frames of mind.
Cockroachs are more "alien" to us than Vulcans.
DNA or not DNA.
I hope I was able to make you understand what I want to mean.
Well yes. I continue to write. And on Fanfiction.Net, for those who want, it is possible to cast a glance at my latest efforts. We arrived to
The Ears of the Elves, chapter Forty-four


And here is the beginning of the whole story.
Image

But, I must say, you could also find something else on Fanfiction.net written by me. If you want.

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Re: Expectations for T'Pol

Postby WarpGirl » Wed Apr 29, 2009 4:36 am

To me Vulcans represent a facet of humanity, so do Klingons, Cardassians, Romulans, and every other "alien race" in all science fiction. However they are not supposed to be the same as us. And what annoyed me about T'Pol's development was that she was constantly assimilating into humanity. She wasn't just coexisting and learning, she was adopting the same outlooks and attitudes as those around her. While this is typical of human nature, it doesn't fit because she is not human.

You can make the argument that her emotional control was always problematic, that she was young, that she was in love, and all of that is true. But in the end it doesn't really matter. 1. Vulcans have individual levels of emotional control, there is no "standard." Not all Vulcans attain Kholinar, some choose not too. That doesn't mean they are lesser than their fellows. 2. T'Pol is very young she's not even physically mature yet, according to some sources, there is no set age for Vulcan maturity. But she's still twice the age of just about everyone on Enterprise. In human terms she is the wisest most mature person on board. And she's certainly is mature enough to see the distinction between a bad decision and a good one. 3. Falling in love with Trip would alter her behavior in certain ways, but if she isn't true to herself and to her heritage, she's not the woman Trip loves.

Trellium D T'Pol as depicted in the show was selfish, and showed a shocking disregard for the lives of her fellow crew-mates. Indulging her emotions during a time of war when she was in command was negligence at best. And I'm sorry just because Vulcans didn't have the Kir'Shara they still knew the basic tenets of Surak's teachings. Let me list the ones T'Pol wasn't following during her in-canon addiction...

Cast out fear. There is no room for anything else until you cast out fear.

Reach out to others courteously. Accept their reaching in the same way, with careful hands.

Wide experience increases wisdom, provided the experience is not sought purely for the stimulation of sensation.

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one.

The Vulcans still had these teachings, there was no reason for T'Pol to abandon them. Her behavior almost killed the TnT romance for me because part of it's power were these two people accepting each-other for who they are. Both in spite of, and BECAUSE of their differences. Instead T'Pol was treated like a broken doll who needed to be fixed. And Vulcans as a whole were presented as haughty oppressors who were actually little more than duplicitous savages under a vaneer of civility that humans needed to save from themselves because they were incapable.

Let me be clear I don't hate T'Pol, I'm actually very fond of her. But she was handled atrociously.
Some of these people haven't taken their medication. Let's see what happens now...
Donna Moss: The West Wing


And by people WG had herself in mind, but then the quote would have been ruined.
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Re: Expectations for T'Pol

Postby Asso » Wed Apr 29, 2009 5:18 am

This time, I diverge from you. For example, I love T'Pol exactly for the reasons you found her badly handled.
Unlike you, I found finally what - for me - a Vulcan has to be, especially a Vulcan who lives in the uncertain and primitive times where Enterprise has place.
She's true, unlike other Vulcans.
Evidently I didn't be capable of express what I meant.
But that is only a matter of different perceptions and expectations.
Well yes. I continue to write. And on Fanfiction.Net, for those who want, it is possible to cast a glance at my latest efforts. We arrived to
The Ears of the Elves, chapter Forty-four


And here is the beginning of the whole story.
Image

But, I must say, you could also find something else on Fanfiction.net written by me. If you want.


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