I Just Rewatched ____ and Noticed ____

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I Just Rewatched ____ and Noticed ____

Postby Elessar » Sat Dec 15, 2007 8:27 am

This is a little idea I had because once or twice I have posted a thead or a comment in some random thread about how I just re-watched Northstar or just rewatched Similitude or some such thing (related to Trip and T'Pol) and I just noticed _____.

I don't know if a lot of people out there find themselves re-watching the episodes but perhaps the idea will spurn some interest into doing so because as I sat down and rewatched Extinction, I noticed for the first time.

In the opening scene, Trip gives T'Pol the Geogia peaches and she says that it won't make up for having missed two previous sessions... If you watch her eyes as she takes a bite into the peach, she actually begins to smile briefly. It's not a huge movement, but with T'Pol (and Jolene) even the tiniest perturbations are exceptional. When she then chides him for missing two sessions, you can see the 'you were late for our date' look in her face too :D

I also rewatched Twilight and it was very difficult because it seemed like the writing was trying to force T'Pol and Archer together but I noticed for the first time while watching this episode that either Jolene didn't wanna act it that way or they were directing her to look evasive and discomforted by the mention of emotional attachement to Archer. While it is obvious that the undertone they were shooting for is that T'Pol's cover story was that she was just paying back the favor that Archer owed her for saving her life while she secretly has feelings for him and that being the real reason she's taken so much time to take care of him. But if you watch her facial expressions when she is confronted by having to tell Archer about what happened and having to tell Phlox what happened, it is nothing like that which she shows in the real universe episodes when she's forced to confront her feelings for Trip. Her expression in Twilight is one of frustration and irritation, not anxiety and embarassment at the inability to confront the emotions. Although, the "our relationship has evolved over the years..." "How far has it evolved?" *deadpan* is really out of nowhere when compared to this. Why would T'Pol - should she have them - be able to confront her feelings for Archer straight-faced yet be so immature as to be unable to confront them with Phlox, someone who has been a closer and more trusted confidant than anyone else?

I think that line's a throw-away. I also think that the scenes where she and Trip have some contention and confrontation is pretty much solid lead-up to there being some repression and resentment as a result of her spending a lot of time with Archer and no time with him. IMO, the tension and silent yearning is there in their interactions.
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Re: I Just Rewatched ____ and Noticed ____

Postby CoffeeCat » Sat Dec 15, 2007 6:08 pm

I noticed the same about "twilight" - She's such a good actress and you can just TELL she was probably deliberately trying to give the audience the impression that T'Pol had very little interest in Archer romantically. I also got the same impression from watching *the_abomination*.
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Re: I Just Rewatched ____ and Noticed ____

Postby blacknblue » Sat Dec 15, 2007 6:51 pm

If nothing else, I have to agree with you that Jolene is a superb actress. In everything that I have seen her in, her skills are at the top of her craft. I sincerely doubt that she would ever project anything on the screen that she did not choose to project.
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Re: I Just Rewatched ____ and Noticed ____

Postby justTripn » Sat Dec 15, 2007 7:34 pm

"Although, the "our relationship has evolved over the years..." "How far has it evolved?" *deadpan* is really out of nowhere when compared to this. Why would T'Pol - should she have them - be able to confront her feelings for Archer straight-faced yet be so immature as to be unable to confront them with Phlox, someone who has been a closer and more trusted confidant than anyone else?"

I remember in the commentary on the episode on the DVD's in the original script the "How far has it evolved?" line was supposed to be answered, "Not THAT far," but they changed it at the last minute on the set during the scene. This is from memory. I'd have to rewatch that one, but I'm pretty sure.
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Re: I Just Rewatched ____ and Noticed ____

Postby Asso » Sat Dec 15, 2007 8:07 pm

Undeniably we are talking about a stereotype.
The Captain and his "Beauty."
On Enterprise, that didn't absolutely work.
Why?
The answers are a lot.
The first one that comes in my mind is: there are different captains and Archer surely isn't "the best".
The second one is: boys, there are lucky captains and unlucky captains.
Harcher has a big misfortune, in his" possible" relationship with T'Pol: his friend Trip. Someone along the way noticed it, luckily. Then. ..” the abomination". (I believe I have already said this: the mother of the idiots is always pregnant".

BTW: I became Captain. OK. Now I can give Archer a torrid time, (Well, you surely be able to understand that he is not much... appreciated by me). :badgrin: :badgrin: :badgrin:
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Re: I Just Rewatched ____ and Noticed ____

Postby CoffeeCat » Sat Dec 15, 2007 10:00 pm

Asso wrote:the mother of the idiots is always pregnant


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Re: I Just Rewatched ____ and Noticed ____

Postby Asso » Sat Dec 15, 2007 10:28 pm

I wait for! :lol: :lol: :lol:
Well yes. I continue to write. And on Fanfiction.Net, for those who want, it is possible to cast a glance at my latest efforts. We arrived to
The Ears of the Elves, chapter Forty-four


And here is the beginning of the whole story.
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But, I must say, you could also find something else on Fanfiction.net written by me. If you want.

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Re: I Just Rewatched ____ and Noticed ____

Postby CoffeeCat » Sun Dec 16, 2007 12:02 am

Well it's either that or use it as the title for an AinT Mpreg badfic.
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Re: I Just Rewatched ____ and Noticed ____

Postby Elessar » Sun Dec 16, 2007 8:00 am

CoffeeCat wrote:Well it's either that or use it as the title for an AinT Mpreg badfic.


:guffaw:

JT that's really very interesting, the thing about the script, I find that 100% believable.

In essence, this storyline reminds me a little of the Voyager episode "Resolution" when Janeway and Chakotay get left on a planet alone because they contract some kind of disease that they were unable to treat.

I think the one saving grace we got with Twilight was that the Golden Rule of Star Trek which has always been upheld even though they've strayed near it - is the "Captain cannot long-term hookup with any member of his/her crew." We saw this in TNG with Picard/Crusher, we saw it in VOY with Janeway/Chakotay, and we see it in Enterprise with Archer/T'Pol -- Except that I think out of those three, Janeway/Chakotay had the most chemistry, which doesn't say a lot. We didn't really have any on-screen justification for Picard/Crusher until the whole "mind-sharing" thing, and well.... we don't even have to SAY why AnT makes no sense.

I mean, if we can step away from the romantic aspect of it, there is something poetically symmetrical to be said about having T'Pol and Archer become exceptionally good friends over the long run in a sort of precursor to Kirk and Spock and as I'm sure it was intended to be a successor to that dynamic, Janeway and Tuvok. The mixed-sex friendships that don't go any further than that have their charming dynamic in that they force us to consider the ultimate value of plutonic friendships and possible superiority of it over romantic engagements... and I respect and admire it when they can pull this off, and personally I think if they just could have avoided SULLYING it with all of the Archer-acting-sexually-frustrated crap that they did, it would have worked.

That really just dishonored and disrespected their friendship permanently right there. I mean how do you make them long-term friends if you're conscious of the fact that Archer may always be thinking about her sexually? (I'm criticizing the writers right now btw for putting in that crap, because it ruined the possibility of a Kirk/Spock precursor relationship).
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Re: I Just Rewatched ____ and Noticed ____

Postby Asso » Sun Dec 16, 2007 12:52 pm

Elessar wrote: That really just dishonored and disrespected their friendship permanently right there. I mean how do you make them long-term friends if you're conscious of the fact that Archer may always be thinking about her sexually? (I'm criticizing the writers right now btw for putting in that crap, because it ruined the possibility of a Kirk/Spock precursor relationship).


They didn't know where they should go. :lol:
Well yes. I continue to write. And on Fanfiction.Net, for those who want, it is possible to cast a glance at my latest efforts. We arrived to
The Ears of the Elves, chapter Forty-four


And here is the beginning of the whole story.
Image

But, I must say, you could also find something else on Fanfiction.net written by me. If you want.

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Re: I Just Rewatched ____ and Noticed ____

Postby CoffeeCat » Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:01 pm

Elessar wrote:I mean, if we can step away from the romantic aspect of it, there is something poetically symmetrical to be said about having T'Pol and Archer become exceptionally good friends over the long run in a sort of precursor to Kirk and Spock and as I'm sure it was intended to be a successor to that dynamic, Janeway and Tuvok. The mixed-sex friendships that don't go any further than that have their charming dynamic in that they force us to consider the ultimate value of plutonic friendships and possible superiority of it over romantic engagements... and I respect and admire it when they can pull this off, and personally I think if they just could have avoided SULLYING it with all of the Archer-acting-sexually-frustrated crap that they did, it would have worked.


I think it's really believable that Janeway and Tuvok & Kirk and Spock were close friends, but I've always felt that the Archer/T'Pol friendship only went one way. T'Pol would give and he would take, but it never seemed the reverse. The friendship was very one sided and Archer needed her around as a punching bag to vent on. T'Pol's friends on the ship were Phlox & Trip.
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Re: I Just Rewatched ____ and Noticed ____

Postby HopefulRomantic » Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:51 pm

Elessar wrote:In essence, this storyline reminds me a little of the Voyager episode "Resolution" when Janeway and Chakotay get left on a planet alone because they contract some kind of disease that they were unable to treat.

In an early draft of that script, at the end of that pivotal "warrior story" scene, Janeway and Chakotay kissed each other. (Yay, Jeri Taylor.) I guess somebody got cold feet. Just the beginning of the end for J/C. *sigh* [/disgruntled J/C shipper]

I think the one saving grace we got with Twilight was that the Golden Rule of Star Trek which has always been upheld even though they've strayed near it - is the "Captain cannot long-term hookup with any member of his/her crew." We saw this in TNG with Picard/Crusher, we saw it in VOY with Janeway/Chakotay, and we see it in Enterprise with Archer/T'Pol -- Except that I think out of those three, Janeway/Chakotay had the most chemistry, which doesn't say a lot.

IMHO, of all the Trek scenarios, J/C had credible grounds for a crelationship, because they were in the Delta quadrant, a zillion miles away from the "real world". Voyager was, in essence, shipwrecked, the same way the E2 Enterprise was shipwrecked in time--and that ship became a generational ship, with couples hooking up to keep the "family" alive and functioning. Even Archer got married and had a family. One could make a case for Janeway and Chakotay becoming matriarch and patriarch of the Voyager "family"...except this is Trek, and the writers weren't listening to their characters' chemistry (which I thought was a lot stronger than you, I think, before the writers killed it dead), and I also think Mulgrew didn't want the characters to hook up and that was factored in. And Jeri Taylor left the writing staff, too. So no mo J/C. :(

We didn't really have any on-screen justification for Picard/Crusher until the whole "mind-sharing" thing,

But they had a lot of backstory, which made for a loooot of UST. But I was incredibly :wtf: by how TPTB handled P/C in that ep, anyway. Bleah! Had to wait 7 dang years for a kiss, and then the movies totally ignored 'em, and wait another howmany years for them to finally get together in a book, for cryin' out loud. Sheesh. [disgruntled P/C shipper]

I mean, if we can step away from the romantic aspect of it, there is something poetically symmetrical to be said about having T'Pol and Archer become exceptionally good friends over the long run in a sort of precursor to Kirk and Spock and as I'm sure it was intended to be a successor to that dynamic, Janeway and Tuvok. The mixed-sex friendships that don't go any further than that have their charming dynamic in that they force us to consider the ultimate value of plutonic friendships and possible superiority of it over romantic engagements... and I respect and admire it when they can pull this off,

Well said. As a fan of the Big Three and the Archer/T'Pol friendship, this is how I've always seen the interaction between A/T'P. Deep abiding friendship between two people, no matter what gender, is a great dynamic.

and personally I think if they just could have avoided SULLYING it with all of the Archer-acting-sexually-frustrated crap that they did, it would have worked.

That really just dishonored and disrespected their friendship permanently right there. I mean how do you make them long-term friends if you're conscious of the fact that Archer may always be thinking about her sexually? (I'm criticizing the writers right now btw for putting in that crap, because it ruined the possibility of a Kirk/Spock precursor relationship).

Ummm... "all" of the Archer-acting-sexually-frustrated...? ..."always" be thinking about her sexually? As I recall, the only time the interaction between them, from Archer's perspective, was presented in an undeniably sexual context was in ANiS, when he was sleep-deprived, cranky about the Kretassians being upset, even crankier about the Kretassians not giving him any warning about the virus that infected Porthos when Phlox sent down everybody's DNA (insert technobabble from beginning of ep here), and worried sick about Porthos dying. Archer knew as well as anybody else that the dreams and Freudian slips about T'Pol were inappropriate. In the episode I saw, he looked vastly uncomfortable and embarrassed about the whole thing. So I didn't get the impression that he looooonged for her for the four seasons of the show, and ANiS didn't "ruin" their friendship "permanently" for me. Actually, I am in that slim minority that enjoyed the show.

I thought Twilight was great too, but I think I'm going to get enough rotten vegetables thrown at me today. :wink:

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Re: I Just Rewatched ____ and Noticed ____

Postby JadziaKathryn » Sun Dec 16, 2007 6:59 pm

HopefulRomantic wrote:
and personally I think if they just could have avoided SULLYING it with all of the Archer-acting-sexually-frustrated crap that they did, it would have worked.

That really just dishonored and disrespected their friendship permanently right there. I mean how do you make them long-term friends if you're conscious of the fact that Archer may always be thinking about her sexually? (I'm criticizing the writers right now btw for putting in that crap, because it ruined the possibility of a Kirk/Spock precursor relationship).

Ummm... "all" of the Archer-acting-sexually-frustrated...? ..."always" be thinking about her sexually? As I recall, the only time the interaction between them, from Archer's perspective, was presented in an undeniably sexual context was in ANiS, when he was sleep-deprived, cranky about the Kretassians being upset, even crankier about the Kretassians not giving him any warning about the virus that infected Porthos when Phlox sent down everybody's DNA (insert technobabble from beginning of ep here), and worried sick about Porthos dying. Archer knew as well as anybody else that the dreams and Freudian slips about T'Pol were inappropriate. In the episode I saw, he looked vastly uncomfortable and embarrassed about the whole thing. So I didn't get the impression that he looooonged for her for the four seasons of the show, and ANiS didn't "ruin" their friendship "permanently" for me. Actually, I am in that slim minority that enjoyed the show.

I thought Twilight was great too, but I think I'm going to get enough rotten vegetables thrown at me today. :wink:
I have to agree with Elessar on this one, because after ANiS we have this niggling doubt in the back of our mind that maybe Archer is carrying a torch for T'Pol. Or, worse if you ask me, is just lusting after her.

The main problem I had with Twilight is that T'Pol acted wildly unVulcan in leaving the ship to be Archer's nanny. It's a stretch, but I can overlook that we needed Super!Archer to save Earth. *wince* But out of nowhere she decided her skills are best used as... a caretaker? Riiight. If she were human she might feel guilty, but she's not, and it struck me as yet another example of character assassination for the sake of a plot with squicky UST.
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Re: I Just Rewatched ____ and Noticed ____

Postby blacknblue » Sun Dec 16, 2007 7:47 pm

Elessar wrote:JT that's really very interesting, the thing about the script, I find that 100% believable.

In essence, this storyline reminds me a little of the Voyager episode "Resolution" when Janeway and Chakotay get left on a planet alone because they contract some kind of disease that they were unable to treat.

I think the one saving grace we got with Twilight was that the Golden Rule of Star Trek which has always been upheld even though they've strayed near it - is the "Captain cannot long-term hookup with any member of his/her crew." We saw this in TNG with Picard/Crusher, we saw it in VOY with Janeway/Chakotay, and we see it in Enterprise with Archer/T'Pol -- Except that I think out of those three, Janeway/Chakotay had the most chemistry, which doesn't say a lot. We didn't really have any on-screen justification for Picard/Crusher until the whole "mind-sharing" thing, and well.... we don't even have to SAY why AnT makes no sense.

I mean, if we can step away from the romantic aspect of it, there is something poetically symmetrical to be said about having T'Pol and Archer become exceptionally good friends over the long run in a sort of precursor to Kirk and Spock and as I'm sure it was intended to be a successor to that dynamic, Janeway and Tuvok. The mixed-sex friendships that don't go any further than that have their charming dynamic in that they force us to consider the ultimate value of plutonic friendships and possible superiority of it over romantic engagements... and I respect and admire it when they can pull this off, and personally I think if they just could have avoided SULLYING it with all of the Archer-acting-sexually-frustrated crap that they did, it would have worked.

That really just dishonored and disrespected their friendship permanently right there. I mean how do you make them long-term friends if you're conscious of the fact that Archer may always be thinking about her sexually? (I'm criticizing the writers right now btw for putting in that crap, because it ruined the possibility of a Kirk/Spock precursor relationship).


It all goes along with the writers/producers determination to present Archer as an overgrown baby. He was childish in so many ways. He couldn't delegate responsibility. He threw tantrums on his officers. He blamed other people for his mistakes. He put his DOG of all things ahead of the welfare of his ship and 83 PEOPLE in his crew. And he had wet dreams about his first officer, which he allowed to spill over into his working relationship with her - how unprofessional can you get? That kind of behavior would get a man fired at any corporation, much less a military organization.

It's entirely possible for two people of opposite genders to maintain a platonic friendship. But it is a different kind of friendship than you have with someone of the same gender. You always have to be aware of the boundaries, that's all. There are places you can't go, things you can't say, things you can't do with a friend of the opposite gender. It's no big deal if you keep your head out of your ass. Thing is, the writers on Star Trek never seemed able to grasp this concept, and certainly never seemed able to present it on screen.
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Re: I Just Rewatched ____ and Noticed ____

Postby Asso » Sun Dec 16, 2007 7:54 pm

blacknblue, you are right! :thumbsup:
Well yes. I continue to write. And on Fanfiction.Net, for those who want, it is possible to cast a glance at my latest efforts. We arrived to
The Ears of the Elves, chapter Forty-four


And here is the beginning of the whole story.
Image

But, I must say, you could also find something else on Fanfiction.net written by me. If you want.


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