Why the Trip abuse?

[justTripn]

A fresh perspective! Can't wait to see what you come up with.

[Distracted]

but in my opinion T'Pol still has some issues to work with herself, because it still was a bit like pulling teeth to get her to admit things to Trip. I don't see the one kiss as being enough to fix anything, just a start.

I found that to be the true dilemma as well. All "Bound" proved is that she was willing to go to extreme lengths to prevent him from leaving. It said nothing about her readiness to pursue a relationship. As a matter of fact, their interactions in Terra Prime were NOT those of an established couple until after Elizabeth's death forces them to comfort each other. They were obviously NOT together before then despite Paxton's assumptions and despite their obvious desire to protect each other. Their relationship was still at the "good working team" stage, in my view, and was not that of a couple.

T'Pol need(s) Trip's help to grow and to make decissions and if so does he do that by being more confrontational and demanding or being more subtle and maybe even a bit devious in a good way. And is there going to be some influence from others too and what about the Kir'Shara what has T'Pol learned from it.

Excellent questions! I had Trip be devious in my stories, but used an external force to bring them together. That external force could easily be an aspect of the Kirshara, or perhaps even the advice of a friend. I personally don't think that being confrontational and demanding is in Trip's character based on the series. The series paints him, as others have pointed out on this thread, as a man willing to forgo his own needs to avoid hurting someone he cares for. This is not the type of man who gets in a woman's face and DEMANDS anything of her, IMO. This is, of course, only my opinion. I'm certain that others would disagree. Probably most emphatically if I know Rigil.

[Rigil Kent]

First of all, this thread was never intended to be a discourse on the TnT relationship as a whole, but more of a way for me to vent over the continuing "T'Pol pulls the 'Come Here, Go Away' crap. Again." cliche of recent post-Terra Prime fics. It has morphed into something else however.

All "Bound" proved is that she was willing to go to extreme lengths to prevent him from leaving. It said nothing about her readiness to pursue a relationship.

So ... it meant nothing when T'Pol told him, point-blank "I want you back." And Trip's comment about having a lot of work to do was entirely based on the work on Enterprise, huh? From a cinematic standpoint, it's obvious what the subtext was from that scene. I don't understand how someone can interpret it otherwise. Simply having T'Pol utter those words were more than a step forward, and given the importance of the mating bond in Vulcan culture, I also don't get how you can argue that she isn't willing to being ready to pursue a relationship. According to Vulcan tradition, they're already married.

As a matter of fact, their interactions in Terra Prime were NOT those of an established couple until after Elizabeth's death forces them to comfort each other. They were obviously NOT together before then despite Paxton's assumptions and despite their obvious desire to protect each other. Their relationship was still at the "good working team" stage, in my view, and was not that of a couple.

I guess if you see it that way, then you see no problem with the absurdities of *the_abomination* and the "break-up". What was the point of the entire TnT subplot throughout seasons 3 & 4 if they're "not together" at that point in the series? It might as well have been discarded entirely since it apparently had no actual resolution and served no purpose beyond taking up time for needless angst. Wow. That's a romance for the ages.

Yes, they had problems with interacting, but they've had problems doing that since the show started and, based on Lorian's comments, will likely continue to do that for many, many years. It's obvious what the cinematic subtext was in Bound - hell, I think it was actually in the fricking script too. What was the point of the entire Bound episode and the "I want you back" if not to say "Look. They've got issues, but they are a couple." I don't think that they tumbled into bed that night and it's obvious that they do have some continuing issues to work out (hence Trip's "Guess we've got a lot of work to do" comment and their issues in Demons/Terra Prime), but, from the previously mentioned cinematic standpoint, the subtext is obvious.

Based on your reasoning, Dis, I find myself viewing T'Pol with a little bit of contempt since, in your theory, she's (once again) playing the stupid "Come Here, Go Away" game and is in the "Come Here" zone. That's the definition of a tease and does not make me like her. Trip has adjusted his career twice because of her and saying that she's "not ready" really irks me. She's 67 fricking years old! Ostensibly, that means she's an adult, right? Why do we have to continue the motif of her acting like a teenager who is dating for the first time? Throw in the fact that, had Tucker not given her advice back in mid-season 1, she would have been married to Koss for over three years now. She has over twice the life experience of anyone (except Super!Archer and maybe Phlox) on Enterprise, yet because she's Vulcan and "confused", we're supposed to just give her a pass. Blech.

I personally don't think that being confrontational and demanding is in Trip's character based on the series. The series paints him, as others have pointed out on this thread, as a man willing to forgo his own needs to avoid hurting someone he cares for.

It also paints him as something of a pushover when it comes to people he cares about. Look at how both Archer and T'Pol can treat him poorly (Cogenitor immediately springs to mind in regards to Archer the Hypocrite hurling verbal abuse at Tucker and Tucker just ... taking it.) If nothing else, the primary thing we've learned about him is that he is too damned reactive, and not proactive enough.

And that is my not so humble opinion on the subject.

[Bether6074]

It is right in the script about the "gotta lot o' work to do" line. It mentions something about Re: their relationship as I recall. It also said something to the effect that "T'Pol was happier than she'd been in a long time, though she'd never let it show". Something like that.

[Distracted]

Her need/desire to have him back on the ship is obvious, but the admission had to be unwillingly wrested from her. A relationship requires a willingness to compromise and the ability to show affection, even if it's just in private. After that ONE kiss, other than the hand clasp in Terra Prime, was there ANY sign of physical affection seen on screen between the two of them INITIATED BY T'POL?

No.

Being willing to "do the work" and actually doing it are two seperate things. My point is that in order to get them to the point where a continued romantic relationship is even believable between the two of them, you've got to show what's going on off camera, and if you assume that Trip's had enough and is waiting for her to make the first move, the series gives NO evidence that she does so prior to the last scene of Terra Prime. There has to be a plot device which brings them together, IMO, because she's not going to just go to his cabin and jump into bed with him. It doesn't work to just write a story assuming that after "Bound" they just automatically took up housekeeping together or something, because they are obviously still in the "feeling each other out" stage. You don't tell the love of your life... the person that you've decided to spend the rest of your life with... that "we've got a lot of work to do". That's the sort of thing you say to someone you have a connection to (like an estranged spouse or an ex-girlfriend) whom you are willing to make another start with but aren't sure yet whether it's gonna work out. I sure wouldn't have married my husband if he'd've said, "I want to marry you, but we've got a lot of work to do."

[Rigil Kent]

Well, I suppose we'll simply have to agree to disagree. I'm really afraid that if I respond to your theory in further detail, I'll end up offending you and I don't want to do that. I'll simply step back out of the conversation since it's fairly obvious that we do not agree here and any additional statements I have are going to come across as belligerent.

So much for a happy ending.

[Bether6074]

I guess the way I took it was that she was willing to try and that was a start in the right direction at least.

[Distracted]

Agreeing to disagree can still be a happy ending, Rigil, if you're talking about this thread. It's called IDIC.

If you're talking about the series, well... why do you think we're all writing, hmmm? BnB didn't give us a happy ending. They didn't even give us an ending to the relationship, period. It sort of just fizzled out according to them. I think we can both agree that, however TnT ended up getting together, that THAT outcome is a load of horseshit!

[Rigil Kent]

No ... I'm writing because those morons didn't tell us the story of the Earth/Romulan War and wasted time on nonsense like ANIS or The Seventh. Since I don't accept any part of *the_abomination* as remotely accurate because of how obviously it conflicts with both Enterprise and TNG, the series ends at Terra Prime for me. And, based on the way TP ended, they're a couple.

[Distracted]

I would agree that they're a POTENTIAL couple, but that the relationship still has a long way to go. That's all I'm saying. It's not a "happy ever after" type thing. It can be interpreted several ways... he wiped the kiss off and didn't seem to eager for another one... and she's not the type to chase after him... so there's a need for more explanation of how they end up together. It's not a given based on Bound OR TP if you take her tendency to run from emotion into account. I personally think that being overwhelmed by Trip's grief on top of her own and running is a very believable action for T'Pol to take after TP... so much so that I felt it necessary to come up with an overwhelming reason for her NOT to run in my stories. TP is, in my view, a HOPEFUL ending, but not a happy one. That's why I write.

[Rigil Kent]

Sigh. Okay. Whatever. I'm done with the "discussion". Anything else I say is going to be seen as trying to argue. It's pretty obvious that we don't agree here, so I'm going to stop now before I end up pissing someone else off.

[Kevin Thomas Riley]

I've always taken the scene from Bound to mean that they are indeed a couple from that point on. Definitely not a perfect couple, because they still have a lot of issues to resolve, hence the "guess we've got a lot of work to do" comment. They obviously, like any couples really, have to work on their relationship.

The fact that they share a Vulcan mating Bond, and that T'Pol finally has managed to admit to Trip that she needs him (i.e. Vulcan-speak for "I love you") further underlines that.

But since they're both very new to this, we have those scenes in Demons when they're expressing discomfort about the Bond, being in each others heads and all that. But they are a couple. They even bicker like an old married couple about asking for directions when they're down in that Moon mine.

Finally, we have the shared grief and hand holding in the real finale, Terra Prime. The de facto Mr and Mrs Tucker.

That's my firm views on this subject.

[Distracted]

Who's pissed off? I'm certainly not. I guess it could be a matter of how we each define the words "couple" and "relationship". Since I've never been in a physical relationship that didn't also involve a lifetime commitment, I really don't see casually dating someone or even having sex with them without commmitment as being a "couple" or being in a "relationship". That's just friends with benefits. A relationship is more extensive, in my view, and potentially permanent. I guess that's not everyone's opinion on the matter. Depending on your personal definition of "couple", then, I suppose I see your point. They were certainly very close friends with benefits by the end of TP.

[Rigil Kent]

I've gone on record stating that I am a firm believer in marriage for life, so I kind of doubt that our views on "couples" and "relationships" are all that different. I simply contest the view that TnT were simply "friends with benefits" by the end of Terra Prime. From a storytelling and cinematic viewpoint, the final scene of that episode is clearly making the statement that they are together and will get through this together. The original ending to Terra Prime (which they revised due to the absurdity that was *the_abomination*) actually had T'Pol ask Trip if them having another baby based on Phlox's findings was what he wanted ... I think it was Zane who originally posted that from the script either at HoT or TrollBBS. Therefore, it seems logical to assume that they are well beyond the "just friends" stage and firmly into the "we're a couple." Hell, even Archer made an oblique reference to the fact that TnT were a couple during his speech (that, surprisingly, didn't suck.)

But, as I said, I'm not going to press the issue or argue it any further as I've learned, from experience, that my ... debating technique has a tendency to annoy some people. Suffice to say, I disagree with you and I'm done.

Rah.

[Bether6074]

Rigil, I hope you'll forgive me for saying this to a tough guy such as yourself, but I think what you need right now is a little TLC. I don't think anyone is ticked at you. You're just stating your opinion, right?

Now... aren't we all glad that we have a board where we can agree to disagree? Discussions are a priviledge, right? And, I'd like to think that we're all friends here. IDIC can be a wonderful thing.