Why the Trip abuse?

[Rigil Kent]

In order to GET them together we've got to explain WHY Trip takes her shit and comes back for more.

But, with Bound, they pretty much established that Trip was DONE with taking the shit. That's my gripe, I guess. The show establishes that they are on a more even footing and are done with the absurd games ... yet all of these fics seem to continue with him taking her crap and coming back for more. To me, the entire point of the short-lived Columbia arc was Trip basically telling T'Pol "I'm not taking this anymore. Treat me like an equal, or I'm gone." and, after far too much angst, she finally got it.

So... the question burning in Rigil's mind, I'm assuming, is whether the relationship between TnT reflects what women want in real life.

God, I hope that's not the question in my mind. Ugh. I'm on record stating how much I disliked the way the show did their relationship and there is absolutely no way I would let myself get into something like that. *shudders*

It's just ... I really like TnT. But I do not like this recurring stereotype about Trip putting up with the level of nonsense that he does. Maybe it's the testosterone in me, or my non-PC caveman tendencies (thank you for that phrase, BnB), but I'm just sick of it.

I guess I'm done here. I've said my piece, complained about things that probably only really matter to me, and probably pissed off some people in the process. If that's the case, then I apologize as it wasn't the intent.

[Distracted]

No offense taken here, Rigil. I'm curious, though. Given T'Pol's established personality traits, how would YOU get them back together? If we assume that "Bound" was Trip's "Declaration of Independence", and he's not going to initiate anything, wouldn't it be tremendously OOC for T'Pol to make the first move without a significant trigger? She had her trellium use as an excuse in the Expanse, but she's supposedly holding it together in "Bound", so why would she go to him?

You griped about my season 5 story "No Greater Love" because I used Ponfarr as the trigger which finally drove her to him. What else would you use? Maybe have him "die", or perhaps lose her bond with him so she realizes what she'll miss if she loses him? (Guess I did those already too, though, huh?) Seems to me that waiting for her to make the first move for no good reason except she just feels like it is a perfect set up for the Abomination. I just don't see her suddenly deciding to move in one day. She's Vulcan, remember?

[hth2k]

Does it? Does it really? Then why is it that it's always T'Pol whose dicking Trip around, yet always seems to get a pass because she's "confused". I can't help but to notice that it always seems to be [i]Trip who is having to "put up with it" and "be there" for her, which is what prompted my theory about the bulk of authors being women and having this idealized view of the character who seems willing to put up with a seemingly unlimited amount of crap.
[/i]

Perhaps I should have said "In my view of the TnT dynamic". I agree many authors take it to an extreem that I think most men would tire of and walk or there would be a big argument at minimum.

Most people have varying levels of tolerance with anothers behavior. We put up with stuff from some that would elicit a harsh reaction from others.
We have a disturbed child in our family that just does not comprehend some things.

I think Tucker would express his dissatisfaction to T'Pol knowing she may not understand. After that there would be a period when he watches to see if there is an attempt to change. If no effort is made he may or may not give her another chance. Should the pattern persist he would likely say enough. That said, in my opinion that mental link modifies his perception of her and her actions which could explain the extreme tolerance of same.

Some authors take an idea to the extreem and loose the thread of plausibility in the process. Given the empath nature of Vulcans, she can tell easily when she upsets or POs him. Logicly she would ask why he reacted that way if it was unintentional. Likely they both would realise they need to discuss much if they have any hope of success for long term interaction on any level. As Distracted says, perhaps they are just taking what they saw on the show and magnifying it for dramatic purpose.

I agree sometimes it goes too far into the realm of unbelievibility.

As far as the behavior of real women in the real world goes, some do these things and some don't. Keep looking, there are some good one's out there.

HtH

[justTripn]

Rigil, I don't think WE (the viewers/readers) would be better off if Trip was with Amanda. The drama would be over. But Trip would be better off in a nice conventional boring relationship.

I will also reveal that I am pretty much in the same situation as Distracted--married one of the first guys I became serious with--and we were longtime friends. The friendship was first, the romance came much later. And I'm a nerd (or as my husband likes to think of himself) an "intellectual." Which brings me to another point. The appeal of the Trip and T'Pol relationship: for me, the appeal is their deep friendship/respect for one another that preceeded the romantic relationship. So here's a tip: avoid the games and marry an attactive friend!

[justTripn]

Rigil said something about having non-PC caveman tendencies ? What, I missed something.

I think it IS PC to demand equal treatment for men and women. I always got the impression Rigil was very egalitarian. He even takes up the cause of the Cogenitors! Go Rigil!

And Distracted is right. Even though we see Trip's declaration of independence in Bound (I stood up and cheered when he wiped T'Pol's kiss off his face) we got to contrive something to get them back together. I thought it would be the need/desire to have more children after the Terra Prime incident.

[Rigil Kent]

No offense taken here, Rigil. I'm curious, though. Given T'Pol's established personality traits, how would YOU get them back together?

Uh ... why do I need to get them "back together"? T'Pol's kiss pretty much established that she wanted them to be a couple and Trip's comment "Guess we've got a lot of work to do" also seemed to seal that up. They were a couple from that point again. Throw in the final scene of Terra Prime where it was T'Pol who initiated the hand-holding after Elizabeth's death, and I don't see how anyone can argue that they "drifted apart" or anything like that. From a cinematic POV, it seems absolutely clear that the final scene of TP was one that clearly indicated that they were together for the long haul.

wouldn't it be tremendously OOC for T'Pol to make the first move without a significant trigger?

Like, maybe a passionate kiss in one of Enterprise's corridors? End of Bound? Was that OOC for her?

You griped about my season 5 story "No Greater Love" because I used Ponfarr as the trigger which finally drove her to him.

I did no such thing. If I griped about anything, it was female pon farr which I am on record as thinking is an absurd cliche that violates established Trek canon. I've also griped about how Bounty does exactly that (canon violation) and how it seemed like nothing more than a desperate attempt to get viewers (Hot!Babe!In!Heat! )

What else would you use?

Again, I don't see why I would have to use any such technique. Terra Prime made it clear that they were together for good. Again, my primary gripe stems from the various fics where, inexplicably, T'Pol retreats from Trip again following TP, despite the obvious cinematic intimation that they were finally beyond those games.

I think it IS PC to demand equal treatment for men and women.

Can't really agree with that. Politically correct men aren't supposed to open doors for the ladies, or treat them with respect, or have a backbone and like blowing shit up and drinking beer. JMHO, mind you.

I always got the impression Rigil was very egalitarian.

Eh ... I'm politically incorrect in that I firmly believe that women have no place in a combat zone. I'm not PC in that I think that motherhood should take priority over a career. I'm not PC in that I think that the first job of a husband is to make sure that his spouse is protected and safe. Hence, non-PC, caveman tendencies.

[CX]

It wasn't aked to me, but I really have to ask why we'd have to do something to get them back together? It's already been done, at the end of Bound. They had a rough time in Demons/Terra Prime, but relationships have their bad times to go with the good, and they also got another uniting factor, baby Elizabeth. The hurt/comfort senario may be cliched, but it happened in the show, and you have to agree that with both of them being hurt by this that it makes sense for them to seek comfort in each other. Trip's an emtional guy, he grieves openly, and being much the same way, I can only speak for myself in that I would find T'Pol's Vulcan stoicism an impressive thing to be envied. T'Pol, on the other hand, has no experiance having to deal with these emotions, she's always been able to suppress them. Trip has a lifetime of experiance dealing with his emotions, so he could definately help her deal with hers.

Otherwise, the way I'd get them back together would be through a thid party, like say a mutual friend, of which I can think of at least three possibilities: Phlox, Archer, and Reed. Hell, maybe even Hoshi.

As it is, I'm in complete agreement with Rigil about this, though for me it's kind of weird, because there's been some really good fic with this in it, so I like it, but at the same time it really irritates me.

[tennisgirl]

I've already stated this else where, but the discussion taking place here is qute interesting as well...

I've never been a big fan of more angst for TnT in the "getting together" department after Terra Prime. As the guys have already established, after Bound and Terra Prime, it became apparent that they were moving forward together and taking on whatever came next together. Sorry if I seem way too optimistic, but I'm a hopeless TnTer and I do want a "and they lived together mostly happily 'til death did them part" final for these two.

I've read every TnT story on HoT, but I've found that I like the ones where they are a established couple a lot better. I've found that two of my favorite authors, Rigil and HR, have very different points of view in many matters but when it comes to TnT, they both write a very realistic view of what an actual relationship between these two would be. I like that. Their stories are miles apart from one another, but in each one, TnT are together moving forward as mature grown ups.

[Bether6074]

Well, I actually like when men open doors for me. I don't see that as sexist. I see it as polite.

I see no problem with Trip having a little bit of a soft spot for T'Pol. A little vulnerability in a male isn't all bad in my book. Again, not to the point of her intentionally treating him with any disrespect and him taking it, though. I think a lot of it has to do with personality. Trip's naturally emotional. I don't think that necessarily makes him weak or that it means he has no backbone. The Trip in my mind wouldn't put up with anything that could be considered abusive. But maybeT'Pol does need to work on her "dealing with a human male" skills at times. She should've known better by then. But, then again, that's exactly what relationships require if the people involved want to make them work. A lot of effort. That's part of what makes them rewarding. Your weak traits (and everyone has them) are exposed and you must work on them. You have to work on yourself as a person in order to find balance.

As for the fics making Trip put up with a lot of nonsense from T'Pol, well, too much of that might be OOC, I would think.

Distracted, your approach to your relationship is a perfect example of personality playing a part, I'd say. Direct. Honest. Up front. Obviously, these are qualities your hubby admires, so that worked for your relationship. But, then again, I'm extremely shy and I'm the one who actually made the first bold move with my hubs. Shrugs.

[Mitchell]

I open doors, carry stuff, an watch my manners more around gals. Ok I dont get up every time a women enters a room. None of the men in My family do come to think of it, Its either a Northern thing, or a Farmer thing considering the amount of time that would be wasted on such an action. Gota get back to work fast ya know.

Anywhos.

I see where yer comin from Rigil. An I pretty much agree.

But I cant help but doubt that if it was Miss Blalock yankin you around, an back an forth. That you might be more inclined to keep comin back to.

But seriously Ive really been wondering why their seem to be a good number of fics with TnT yo yoin back an forth post Tera Prime in the Ent story line, an it seems to me that these type of fics seemed to just suddenly grow in number.

I really dont see the need to split them up, hurt trip again, have T'pol be all wishy washy, an then she decides once again she needs Trip in her life Add in major event to make her realise how important he is to her. Especialy since Tera Prime an Bound pretty much afirmed that they were a couple an were moving forward. Disspite their resent lose, an the guarented trials they will face in the future.

Now maybe some of these writers felt a need to explain away around the BS that Was the F#cknale. Which I think is why a few of these types of storys have poped up. An that is understandable although I have to admit, that while I did enjoy Shouldknowbetter's latest fic, It still had me banging my head against a wall for all the crap TnT put each other through in that one.


I can over look the fics of course that follow this wishy washy Polly trend, an their set Pre Bound.


But as to the question Distracted asked on how would TnT get back together. This question has given me nomerous headaches since I first started reading fanfics. Mainly cause ultimatly it comes down to what T'pol would do. But they really did the best job that anyone could do giving the situation on the show, by just havin T'pol finaly have to break down an take action an take what she desired. Or as what she was faced with the other option of losin him once an for all. Thankfully Trip was bluffin. An T'pol took the bait. So to speak.


But I have a really hard time seeing T'pol going to Trip in anyother way then this. Let alone kickin him away once again, an then comin back to him again, an again, an again. I just know thait their needs to be a logical reason for her actions combined with her desires of course, in my head atleast (being Bonded is a damn good reason to motivate her logicaly to finaly act on her feelings . But I never imagined T'pol getting on her knees confessing undieing love to Trip. that would be way to out of character. But Id eventualy see her admitting her affections for him ofcourse in her own way.

[CX]

I'm an equal opportunity door opener, though it depends on what kind of mood I'm in. And only if they're close so I don't have to wait too long.

The thing is that it isn't really a case of trip having a bit of a soft spot, he's practically a pushover.

As for Ms. Blalock, well keep in mind that she literally planned a wedding under the guise of a vacation and then got down on her knee and proposed to him, and they got married the next day.

[Rigil Kent]

But I cant help but doubt that if it was Miss Blalock yankin you around, an back an forth. That you might be more inclined to keep comin back to.

I'd like to think that I have a better sense of self worth than that. Honestly, I don't care how gorgeous she is, or how spectacular in bed, or any of that, if she's going to play the "Come Here, Go Away" game over and over and over again, I'm going to go away. Permanently.

ETA: Which kind of leads me to my next vague question that is only vaguely related to this one. Do you think that Trip had a strong sense of self worth? Because, in retrospect, he really stood there and took a whole lot of abuse from the two people who were (ostensibly) the most important people in his life. Whether it was T'Pol playing her inane her "Come Here, Go Away" games, or Super!Archer chewing Tucker out for doing exactly the same thing that Super!Archer would have done in Cogenitor, Trip didn't seem to really stand up for himself as often as he should have...

[Mitchell]

I'm an equal opportunity door opener, though it depends on what kind of mood I'm in. And only if they're close so I don't have to wait too long.

The thing is that it isn't really a case of trip having a bit of a soft spot, he's practically a pushover.

Aint that the said Truth. Sure he stands his ground in a fight, an when he first meets some one. But once he accepts some one as a friend(Archer), or into his heart (T'pol) they seem to have tha abilaty to walk all over him. Archer sure took advantage of this fact in Daedalus. An I guess T'pol's wishy washyness abuse of this aspect of Trip's per sonality finaly reached the limit when he went to Colombia. Thankfully he dos a have a limit. Just wonder what line Archer would have to do to cross the line, Cause Capn or not in Daedalus Archer was very wrong on so many accounts in that episode.

As for Ms. Blalock, well keep in mind that she literally planned a wedding under the guise of a vacation and then got down on her knee and proposed to him, and they got married the next day.

Proof positive that the world is truely not fair. Makes me really hate rich guys. But god I guess it could of been worse.

But I cant help but doubt that if it was Miss Blalock yankin you around, an back an forth. That you might be more inclined to keep comin back to.

I'd like to think that I have a better sense of self worth than that. Honestly, I don't care how gorgeous she is, or how spectacular in bed, or any of that, if she's going to play the "Come Here, Go Away" game over and over and over again, I'm going to go away. Permanently.

You do know I was teasing right?

Any whos, when you kick her away for good. Could you kick her my way? Ok probably not a good Idea there. Push over me? more then likely. Especialy around beautiful women.


As to the rest of your post.

Uh Trip wouldnt of made it as high as Commander if he had been a major world class push over. But yeah those closest to him do seem to get away with a lot more then others. But with T'pol I atleast understood why he would take a lot of it. They actualy seemed to have a give an take relationship. They gave each other support, help, an friendship from the early days on up disspite all the other troubles they had an never activaly tried to totaly alienate the other even when they argued Early one. But Archer always seemed to be Take, take, take an take some more from everyone, an hardly ever give any back. I never understood how he managed to have any friends at all.

[blacknblue]

That's a good point Rigil. I get the idea that Trip is an over achiever, that he is trying to prove himself to somebody. Maybe he has issues with his father and/or mother.

[CX]

As someone who's had such issues with my father, I can recognise some of the signs, so that's what I suspect, especially since he says he has no where to go home to on earth even though his parents are still around and kicking, along with most of his family presumably.