Why would Starfleet separate TnT?

[Elessar]

I'm currently working on a post-Romulan War Your Mom n Me sequel that is related to this issue...

MY personal opinion about how this would probably go down, considering the chronology of the end of Season 4 when they are getting closest, and the looming war, is reflected in the way my story is going to play out. I'll drop a few hints since it relates to how I feel about this.

I don't LIKE the idea of Starfleet separating Trip and T'Pol, but I don't think it's rational to say they wouldn't just because I don't like it. Suppose the war kicks off in a serious way (a Pearl Harbor type of provocation) in early 2156... Trip and T'Pol are on the Enterprise, and Starfleet starts gearing up for war. Just like what happened with Captain Sisko when the Dominion War starts up, Starfleet is going to need its most seasoned and experienced officers, and having them all on one ship is an inefficient use of their talents, not to mention the proverbial 'eggs in one basket'.

In my story, Starfleet, ignorant of their association, separates them, not intentionally because some Admiral knows they're involved, but simply because they're two very experienced and very valuable commanders who Starfleet wants and NEEDS in command of other units. Sisko was reassigned as Admiral Leyton's Adjutant because he was a talented wartime commander and engineer, and the Defiant (basically HIS ship) was a valuable war asset.

[CX]

My bet would be over a forced fratenization issue dealing directly with the Terra Prime incident. My impression is that normally Starfleet tends to look the other way so long as it isn't interferring with anything, but with the TP incident TnT got pushed to the forefront in a rather nasty way. Plus, there could be some TP supporters among the ranks at SFC.

[hth2k]

Consider also the Vulcan governments views on having a Vulcan National in combat serving a foreign power. There likely would be issues should starfleet keep her on the front line.

Her expertise is best used at Starfleet. A discilpinned thought process tempered with longer experience in space than any Human would be invaluible in planning and analysis.

The Enterprise crew would be split up to command and train new crews to be fed into the front line(s).

Archer may well be left where he is and given largely a new crew. He really isn't smart enough to move up very far. Lucky? Yes. But not really very smart. I would venture his ship would be one of the first destroyed in any real action due largely to his nature.

Tucker would be assigned to R&D and take part in the development of new ships and upgrading technology.

Same with Reed. Move him to R&D and new weapons tech development.

Maywhether moves to an instructor position and starts cranking out pilots infused with his experience.

Sato also needs to move to headquarters and train others.

Phlox would be also moved into a teaching/training mode if he was willing to remain in Human space during the war. That is if Denobula didn't recall him.

Just my take,

HtH

[Distracted]

But all that would make it virtually impossible to write the "further adventures of Enterprise and her crew" in any coherent fashion...and would imply that *the_abomination* is complete fantasy in that the Enterprise wasn't even operational at the end of the war. Doesn't really work for me.

[Rigil Kent]

and would imply that *the_abomination* is complete fantasy in that the Enterprise wasn't even operational at the end of the war.

Which is bad how?

So far, HTH's thoughts are easily the most realistic scenario I've seen ... which is why Trek would completely ignore it in favor of "Super!Archer Rox Sox!" crap.

[CX]

But all that would make it virtually impossible to write the "further adventures of Enterprise and her crew" in any coherent fashion...and would imply that *the_abomination* is complete fantasy in that the Enterprise wasn't even operational at the end of the war. Doesn't really work for me.

They could do it the same way DS9 did it when they split the crew up.

[hth2k]

Put yourself in Earth gov which is now faced with a real honest to god mother lovin' shootin war. They need to mobilize as fast as possible, They need hardware and people to run that hardware. Both of these things take time. You need intel bigtime.

There exists a handful of people that "Have seen the elephant" if you will. Do you risk loosing them all at any given moment by leaving them together? Absolutely not. You figure out how to maximize what there is availible. Form some sort of perimiter. Send eager young folks out in less than adequate hardware and ask them to buy you some time.

Then simultaniously you exploit any intell asset you can. Dig into everything. Find out who the enemy is. Where they are. What is their sphere of influence. Failing direct answers you use inference and indirect methods. Cast a wide net.

Next you ramp any and every resource you can think of to build some kind of a defence. Industry, communications, economics, all mobilize to build support for the effort. If the people do not back it everyone is toast. What happens on the battlefield does not matter nearly as much if the people only hear about death tolls and failures and little of the successes.

You evaluate what you currently have and the oppositions capibilities. Sketchy at first but it is additive.

It takes time to train people. The training will evolve as those first few learn the hard lessons bought in blood. Those that survive will train those that follow. More will be learned. More time will be bought. More die that those left may live free.

It is truly a work of continual process improvement and evolution if you have any pretense of winning. It is hard. It is cruel. It is war for survival. If you are lucky you survive. The harder you work, the luckier you get.

There are endless stories to be told in this scenario. It just happens to be different than the 4 years of relative quiet during the series. People communicate. Things happen. People come together and people are separated and lost.

HtH

[Elessar]

and would imply that *the_abomination* is complete fantasy in that the Enterprise wasn't even operational at the end of the war.

Which is bad how?

So far, HTH's thoughts are easily the most realistic scenario I've seen ... which is why Trek would completely ignore it in favor of "Super!Archer Rox Sox!" crap.

I disagree. HtH's scenario is the nicest and the most convenient for us in terms of what we think would be most deserved things to happen to the crew, but that doesn't mean it's the most likely in reality. You'll see why I have this view when my story comes out... But I think that's being a little too optimistic. When war breaks out all priorities go out the window (not as if I know) but it seems to me that way anyway. Wartime commanders aren't always very smart and they often don't use resources as efficiently as they could, and the buddy system is of course very real.

I agree people would be moved around, but not in such a convenient and just-as-we-would-like way. I don't think it's the most realistic, I think it's the nicest.

I don't think splitting the crew up would have crippled a show... like CX mentioned, DS9 did it. But when I'm writing I don't think about would I would like to have seen on screen.... at least not when it comes to something like combat scenarios. War screws a lot of shit up, it doesn't always put all the smart, high-brained folks back in the rear echelon, safely coming up with good ideas. Not that I always agreed with this rationality, but this is one area where DS9 was pretty realistic in the sense of military matters just taking off and there being no priority for "the smart people" being moved to go train. Yes, they'll do a lot of briefing, but then the information itself will become the trainer, and it will be passed on mechanically. Those individuals who KNOW it themselves aren't always safe from the front just because they were the pioneers. When the Dominion War broke out, Bashir knew more than anyone about Vorta and Founder physiology but he wasn't transfered to some research station on Earth. He was on the Defiant in the thick of battle, as vulnerable as anybody else. The same goes for the Chief and his knowledge of their technology or Sisko and his knowledge of their tactics. He was adjutant to Adm. Leyton, but he was still on the front lines all the time, not whisked away to train people and left out of combat. Lots of people are available train... when an organization faces a new enemy, they need those people who know the enemy and the area (as the Enterprise veterans would) BOTH in space AND training new people, they're needed both places, and they can't be two places at once, so often times some people will get the safe job, others won't. Even a brilliant research surgeon can end up a field medic when the shit hits the fan.

that's just my opinion anyway

[hth2k]

You are of course correct in your supposition that not all the smart, deserving, choose your adjective, people get pulled out and sent back.

The logic was there was one crew that had been out for 4 years. Columbia was on line and maybe a couple more ships by then. There is not a large pool to choose from.

My comments on Archer may be taken a couple ways. You can consider him the most experienced Captain and therefore most likely to give a raw crew a chance or you can look at him as incompetant and likely to get them all killed.

I see this as cyclic. You pull from the freshest pool of knowledge. So they may or may not rotate back into the war zone depending on need.

HtH

[Elessar]

yeah that's a good point. Honestly, whether he deserves it or not, Archer's got a lot of good connections in Starfleet and his reputation (whether earned or lucky) is as a good captain. I'm not sure if i'd call him a good strategist or tactician, but somebody's going to look at what he did in the Xindi conflict and think he was a good tactician, most likely.

Actually, incompetent or not-so-competent commanders ride on the successes of their underlings all the time. One might think that T'Pol was the real source of all the good militaristic ideas in the Expanse and that based on those successes, starfleet might think he's a good choice for Admiralty. I mean let's face it, whether we like it or not, Archer's going to make the admiralty. I'd prefer to write him as a better Captain and a better Tactician in fiction than he may have always shown himself to be in the show. Just a little creative license... I don't see any problem with it. Personally, I think he was just growing out of a kind of childhood view of space travel... the Quadrant is going to prove to be a much more cutthroat place... and i'd like to think that, in adapting to that (even if it's with difficult at first, like in Home) Archer will become more competent. In my perspective, he would become a stronger commander by numbing up a little bit, ethically speaking, when it comes to dealing with the ugly truthes of war. He dealt with, to some degree, what he 'had to do' in the Xindi War. Personally, I think he had the POTENTIAL (up to the writer to make this a reality) to be one of the most capable Commanders in Starfleet at dealing with losing people, ships, and large casualty counts.

I mean, the way we're lead to believe I think, there's never been a war like the Xindi one in Earth's space-faring past, right? I'd like to think Archer is the first military commander in Starfleet's history to have to deal with losing people in large numbers in a combat situation... and therefore possibly one of the bset at it, if one should decide to write him as accepting it. I don't think he'd crumble, personally. He decently well overcame what had to be done in the Expanse, I think that makes a commander stronger, and more able to make the hard choices.

I like to picture him as the Captain Sisko of the Romulan War. Not the architect or anything, but a strong commander, and an important commander with important battlefield experience.

The thing I thought you were saying, HtH, that I didn't agree with was that only the Enterprise crew would be competent at fighting this new enemy. I mean there are new things that others would have to be briefed about, like their power systems, their cloaking ability, their known weapons, their sense of expansionism and territorialism. In fact, the Vulcans would likely be as useful a source of information about them as the Enterprise crew who had direct contact on the few occasions that they ran into them. Because when someone mentioned the Romulan Star Empire around T'Pol, she recognized the name... the Vulcans had run into them before. But, to get back to what I was saying, using an example... Sisko undoubtedly had the most experience dealing with the Dominion and spread his knowledge as much as possible... but when the war geared up, Starfleet had to rely on the independent skills of THOUSANDS of other people. These few, experienced individuals can't be everywhere, so when it comes right down to it, the fighting force is going to be so large that a large part of the fleet is just going to be going out there with their training and their wits. It won't be possible to completely disseminiate ever last iota of the Enterprise crew's experiences with the Romulans. I was just trying to say that it's not like they'd be taken out of space to train everybody on what they knew. They'd do a briefing, or 20, and then become just another ship out there fighting the enemy, just like anybody else. Just like the Defiant

On a different note.... getting almost all the way through the war and then finding out that T'Pol's father was Romulan would have been a great move for the show. I'm not going to do it because it's been talked about to death... but it would have been a good move for the show, and it would have silenced all the idiots that critized T'Pol for being characterized too emotionally over the years. Woulda been great writing...

[hth2k]

Perhaps it might be even more interesting if T'Mir's mate were Romulan ora grandparent on the other side. We know T'Mir was in space and traveled about. She also was part of a generation that shared a curiosity for other races. Look at Mistral. Perhaps there has been more cross fertilization than the Vulcans care to admit or recognise. Also maybe the Vulcans are really not so different physiologically from the Romulans and the real difference is largely philisophical. People tend to steriotype all Vulcans as very similar. Perhaps there is more personality variation as might be expected from any significant population. Remember the TOS Romulans didn't have forhead bumps either. The possibility that some Vulcans do have them or used to also exists. What if say 1 in 50-100k has latent cranial ridges? The pre V'Las government(s) may have been less paranoid.

I see Archer as what they call a "cowboy". Reckless, headstrong and lucky. The type that usually gets away with things the rest of us don't. Someday it will catch up with him. All too often it gets those around them killed. Like they say, "There are old pilots and bold pilots but there are no old bold pilots." He may have the potential to learn and develop as you suggest. Something is going to have to beat it into his thick skull though. IMO

At the beginning of the Romulan war how many ships does Earth have that are deep space capible? 2? A dozen? 20? Not many. How many have been on regular deep space missions? 2?
If so that would make a pool of less than 50 officers to pick from. It would stand to reason that senior officers would have a training and personnel development plan in place and their seconds should be able to replace them fairly easily. The thirds should be ready to step up as well.

I would pull senior officers from Columbia and Enterprise for debrief, new projects, training, etc. Put the seconds in their place and give them largely new crews. The thirds would be assigned to new ships as they came on line. Rotate in and out as the fleet grows. Develop new people and pass along the newer skills and knowledge. This is how a army or navy learns to fight a new enemy. If you keep all the old heads you always fight the last war.

Technology takes time. You need someone that is used to working on the front lines working in cooperation with industry and academia to figure out what can work now and what will take longer. That is why I would pull from Enterprise as much as I indicate. Those mentuoned have special talents and knowledge that others don't. Some will be replaced by new knowledge as it is developed. Those will be rotated out and new people plugged in.

Training people takes time as well. There is a certain pool extant within star fleet to build from. They will get a quick briefing and get shoved into the breech if you will. New recruits will be plugged in as quickly as possible. People are more flexible than hardware. They learn and adapt.

Good luck in making Archer into a competant leader.

HtH

[Elessar]

I agree that people would be moved to spread around their experience, that's what I'm doing with my story. I just don't think anybody would get any special treatment, or uber-safe assignment back on Earth. At least not necessarily, maybe just by somebody's chance decision that that's where they're the most useful.

IMO the escalation of the war would lead to a minimum of 3 officers leaving the Enterprise: Archer, Trip and T'Pol, all probably commanding their own ships, but Archer would most likely be a Fleet Captain or a Commodore or the "brigadier" version of an Admiral, a field grade officer. I'm not saying it'd be the best idea, but it's what would happen, because he has the most command experience with hostile encounters and they would haev to assume at SFC that he knew what they were up against in a large-scale tactical way unlike just about any other admiral most likely, besides maybe those who had close ties with Vulcan diplomats, like Gardner or, if he'd been alive, Forrest. Forrest was an awesome character, he was the only admiral on star trek that anyone ever cared about dying, lol. (besides kirk!)

Actually, another good reason for Archer to be in a high ranking position over the entire fleet is because going into this war it's not just going to be Earth vs Romulus, we know that historically as well as just putting the pieces together in the Andorian-Romulan-Earth arc. It's going to be an allied effort, and Archer has by far the most far-reaching diplomatic ties with these races, so he'd be the logical choice to coordinate the joint efforts. He may not have the 'right stuff' as a command officer by someone's estimation, but I don't see any denying that his diplomatic affiliations would be invaluable.

About the fleet, I agree, it won't be many. In my little construct, Starfleet is able to have 8 NX starships up and running by the end of the war, but that's not 8at the beginning, that's considering continued production throughout the war years of about 1 starship per year after 2157 and 3 between 2155-2157, just based on how they mentioned in I think Fallen Hero (could be wrong) that two more ships were on the drawing board. That's just my guess though.

There's also some argument based on quotes from Spock in Balance of Terror, that the bulk of the fleet must have been made up of lesser advanced vessels, to maintain canonicity of some of the things Spock said. So that means things like Iceland, Neptune class ships have to be in higher numbers. Those are ships (I'm guessing) with like warp 2 or 3 capability. I've never heard them talk about a warp 3 engine, so it might even be stretching it to presume they're warp 3 capable. We really only ever hear about the warp 2 engine they built in the First Flight program and of course the Warp 5 engine. The rest of the fleet might really be antiquated in comparison and be back at warp 2-2.5. But I would presume they would all be retrofitted as much as possible for increased armaments, hull plating, and you could probably completely hack out and replace the navigational, tactical and computer systems.

My little universe has the numbers about 3:1 Iceland/Neptune class to NX starships. But that's jut a guess, someone could just as easily do 8:1 and I couldn't argue with them.... It's all just a matter of how many of those little ships starfleet has.

[pookha]

part of how i see this comes from tos having married couples.
and that the frat rule seemed to have to more with differences in rank ie that except for tpol no one was close enough in rank for archer and trip to be involved with.
and back in breaking the ice we see archer doesnt have a overtly strict feelings about it.

"Is dating allowed
on Enterprise?"
Well, it's not discouraged
but there isn't a lot of privacy
on a starship.
Most of our crew share quarters
with at least one other person
so, it wouldn't
exactly be practical.
But if two crew members
decided they really
like each other
there are a lot of places they
can go to look at the stars.

and the show seemed to be set up for except when archer was away for a long time tpol and trip pretty much seem to be on equal footing.
even in cognetior she never gives a direct order but rather makes suggestions.
insubordination is never mentioned.

really if anything would keep them officially apart (even if they were together on the quiet) would be politics and the possible treat from terra prime.



now as far as the war i could see trip and tpol being transferred into a research position but it also could be that the war is so costly in terms of people lost they might go back in active service.

[blacknblue]

There is one episode, I forgot the name, where a cargo ship captures a Nausican pirate and holds him. ENT steps into the middle of a fight between the traders and the Nausican's firneds, who are trying to get him back. The cargo ship's captain is out of commision all this time, and it is his second in command who causes the conflict.

Reason I bring this up is in regard to your comment about ship engines. At the end of the episode Archer and the trader captain are talking, and the trader gripes that the way things are changing so fast, he is going to have to install a warp three engine just to stay in business. So those engines are probably starting to become standard on Starfleet vessels about the time ENT launches I am guessing.

[hth2k]

You may have hit on something in focusing on Archers diplomatic utility. Put him in a liazion position where he won't be as likely to order someone else to do something stupid.

Again, I am basing this on the fact that Enterprise has been out there dealing in this area for some years and is likely the most experienced in the area and people(s) in question. Columbia only came on line in the last year and only because Trip helped get then out of space dock. That speaks loudly to his ability. This crew has dealt with Romulans more than any other.

T'Pol in command brings up a real bag of snakes. A new crew may not follow her. What is left of the Enterprise crew probably would. The Vulcans may squawk. There may be a big political stink on Earth. Can you picture the firestorm in the world press when SF considers selecting a Vulcan to Captain one of the few Human ships? There is likely to be a large anti-Vulcan sentiment due to their "neutrality". It may not be worth it in the long run. She would be of more use elsewhere with less down side.

I think that the TnT thing would rapidly loose whatever interest it had once a real shooting war breaks out. There are bigger issues to deal with. Starfleet would move people as they (starfellt) perceived a need. Most likely T and T would individually salute, say "yes Sir" and go where they were ordered. How they dealt with that privately would be an interesting story in itself. I think both would put the war effort ahead of personal issues.

I would make the original moves I suggested leaving Archer on Enterprise and giving him largely a new crew. You could move him up a half step if you want easily. Probably give him a iceland or Neptune commander for a new captain if so. Move up reed to Commander as 2ic if you don't pull him back to train for a period. If Reed is already LtC or higher move him up to the center seat. I don't recall the rank you have him. I would have Reed do a 6 month stint in training, tactics and weapons. By then most of what he knows will be stale and he rotates back to front lline duty. Might be about the time Enterprise is ready for a new deployment. This would allow all the current class of crews in training to benifit from what he knows. The manufacturers can integrate his knowledge into weapons and defence for refits and the next generation. When he rotates out pull from the Comumbia, etc. I don't know enough about other ship's crews to speculate about who would be rotated out or where though it would be equally likely some/many would.

T'Pol likely goes to SFHQ and becomes a behind the scenes liazion with Vulcan as well as planning and analysis. This keeps the Vulcans happy and helping behind the scenes, It also keeps the political hot potato of having a Vulcan Captain of a human ship and crew. Remember the Vulcans don't officially help in the E/R conflict.

Trip is obviously best used in developing ways of improving the current generation of propulsion for the ships already in existance. These will probably quickly be depleted in combat so someone with real knowledge of weakness of starships involved in combat has to help plan replacements. If he is as good as I think, he would not often rotate out but make some tours to gather data. There is no great need for him to be in combat. His value lies elsewhere. I see his greatest value in integrating new and perhaps alien technology to improve the breed. Likely he would serve as liazion with industry, academia, and starfleet.

Sato has a unique linguistic gift. There is no reasson to waste that on a starship on the front lines. She is best used training others and developing a means to translate (Romulan) via artificial means. I see her focus as continuing to develop the UT. I would also couple her with intel to decode and interpret what is captured. What value is she on the front lines? If you move Archer to a semi-diplomatic/liazion posting you might attach her to his staff.

Phlox is also a unique resource. How is he best used in a greater war effort assuming he is willing/allowed to serve?

That is why I would shift crew from the 2 NX ships and add from others ships and new graduates. The difference in speed between warp 2-2.5 or 3 and warp 5 means the NX ships cover far greater range in a given time. This means their crews are likely more experienced in ways a lessor ship may not be. They are likely to be the focus of hostile encounters early on as they are also the most capible. The survivibility may be higher on the more advanced ship. Survivibility may be a moot point in a space battle if the ship is destroyed. Rescue is not likely to be in time even if one makes it to a life pod.

When you really look at it, Earth is in a real tough spot at the beginning. I think sheer distance may be her greatest asset.

Looking forward to what you come up with in your next fic.

HtH