The Forge

[Cogito]

I would have thought that T'Pol (as the local expert) and one or two MACO roughnecks would have been the ideal complement for that mission, but I would have been interested to see Trip and T'Pol supporting each other on-screen in the same way that Div Paths has shown them off-screen. In my mind this story had the making of a truly great TV series, sort of a modern-day take on 'Alias Smith & Jones'. But then, that's true of many of the best fanfic stories.

[Rigil Kent]

I made no statement about the comparative dangerousness of dry heat vs wet heat. I merely said that being experienced with wet heat would not necessarily make one more tolerant of dry heat. In fact, wet heat is the more physically dangerous of the two. Because the humidity prevents evaporative cooling via sweating, heat stroke can occur at much lower temperatures. A person can also become dehydrated before feeling thirsty because the mouth takes longer to feel "dry", so early hydration is more critical.

I can probably chime in to lend support on this. I grew up just outside Gainesville, Florida (Go Gators!), and then spent several months in Saudi, Iraq & Kuwait during Desert Storm way back when. Despite being a Florida boy, I was thoroughly unprepared for the desert, although I eventually grew accustomed to it, so if Trip really isn't super experienced - and they made a point of establishing that he doesn't have a lot of experience with different planets in the pilot - it isn't that big of a stretch to believe he hates deserts, especially if he had a bad experience previously and it affects his mindset.

As to who was necessary for the Forge op, honestly, I think the decision to send Archer was probably a logical one. He has the authority and gravitas to converse with the Syrannites that no one else aboard would, although he would obviously have some serious baggage as well, what with his well known antipathy toward Vulcans. Of the crew - disregarding T'Pol; of course she'd have to go - who else do you send?

• Trip? Why? He frankly doesn't bring anything to the table in terms of being anyone other than a top engineer. He's shown no real talent at diplomacy and the last thing you would want to do on a mission like this is send him and T'Pol on a life-threatening, super dangerous mission with how strained their relationship is at the moment.
• Malcolm? He's shown zero diplomatic capability and is a junior officer, so he wouldn't be capable of engaging the Syrannites in any facet.
• Hoshi or Travis? Again, junior officers who bring nothing to the table.
• Soval? He's perceived as an arm of the corrupt V'Las government, so nothing works there.

So from both an operational perspective (using the blatant illogic of the Star Trek universe) and a thematic one (the anti-Vulcan bigot who has matured), Archer is the one who had to go.

That said, I would have preferred them to tone done the Super!Archer nonsense throughout the episode and instead, have Archer frankly be a liability planetside, especially once his has Surak's katra. Make him rely heavily on T'Pol and T'Pau who are essentially dragging him because he's wrung out (super hot, dehydrated, low oxygen content, high gravity, etc.)

[Kotik]

That said, I would have preferred them to tone done the Super!Archer nonsense throughout the episode and instead, have Archer frankly be a liability planetside, especially once his has Surak's katra. Make him rely heavily on T'Pol and T'Pau who are essentially dragging him because he's wrung out (super hot, dehydrated, low oxygen content, high gravity, etc.)

That would have made way too much sense.

[Alelou]

I also think it would have been more interesting, frankly, to see Archer just physically unable to lead in that situation, and forced to rely on T'Pol and strangers, or to try to manage from a position of weakness, definitely a special test of anyone's ingenuity.

[Silverbullet]

Archer had specific orders to remain on Vulcan to lead the Human side of the investigation of the Bombing of the Earth Embassy. He was the only one with the authority to do that. He disobeyed those orders. He deserted his post and disobeyed a direct order from higher headquarters Instead he elected to go off looking for T'Pol's mother.

As I have said Trip at least knew the Gravity and the the atmosphere. He also knew t'Pol's mother. Trip was the logical one to go, not Archer.

Of course, in the series Super Archer is the HERO and he always has to be the one who goes. tooo bad he didn't go take on those people in the Ambination. He might have got killed, toooo bad.

SB

[Distracted]

The last time I checked, we were all fans of the same TV show. Some of us are fonder of some characters than others, but out of politeness to each other can we please try not to vilify any of the main characters? Some of us like ALL of them.

[panyasan]

I thought Archer was a good choice to go down on Vulcan. He is the captain and more a spokeperson of Starfleet than for example Trip. However I also thought it was rather strange that Surak's katra was passed on to him. There was a perfect Vulcan (T'Pol) around at that time.

As for SB's acting - he is good actor how has to work with the stuff he is offered. I thought captain Sisko's (DS9) acting was more wooden at times - and I loved that guy! I really liked JB's acting in season 3 and 4, but she had her lesser moment as well.

For the most, Archer had the potential to be a really complex flesh-and-blood man and most of the times I liked him. It goes wrong when the writers try to force something that isn't there: creating the same trio as in TOS (doesn't work with two men and a female), trying to create chemistry when there wasn't (T'Pol-Archer) or making him bigger than life (T'Pol who is more stronger by specie alone spent more time in sickbay). Kirk can pulled that off and nobody would complain, but with Archer is falls flat.

Still he is one of the great characters that made the show!

[Kotik]

Archer had NO orders to stay on the ship. To go down was Soval's suggestion. Gardners order to return was only issued, when T'Pol and Archer were already in the Forge.

[Alelou]

...out of politeness to each other can we please try not to vilify any of the main characters? Some of us like ALL of them.

This.

[Asso]

...As to who was necessary for the Forge op, honestly, I think the decision to send Archer was probably a logical one. He has the authority and gravitas to converse with the Syrannites that no one else aboard would, although he would obviously have some serious baggage as well, what with his well known antipathy toward Vulcans. Of the crew - disregarding T'Pol; of course she'd have to go - who else do you send?

• Trip? Why? He frankly doesn't bring anything to the table in terms of being anyone other than a top engineer. He's shown no real talent at diplomacy and the last thing you would want to do on a mission like this is send him and T'Pol on a life-threatening, super dangerous mission with how strained their relationship is at the moment.
• Malcolm? He's shown zero diplomatic capability and is a junior officer, so he wouldn't be capable of engaging the Syrannites in any facet.
• Hoshi or Travis? Again, junior officers who bring nothing to the table.
• Soval? He's perceived as an arm of the corrupt V'Las government, so nothing works there.

So from both an operational perspective (using the blatant illogic of the Star Trek universe) and a thematic one (the anti-Vulcan bigot who has matured), Archer is the one who had to go.

I see in these statements, an underlying reasonableness and logicity.

In fact, the defect is in handle, as we say in Italy. I try to explain.

Assumed, so to speak, the need or, rather, the opportunity to carry out this mission in The Forge, the choice (although I believe there would be other possibilities, not only on the choice of who should have accompanied T'Pol, but also on other options, other than to personally go there), would probably fall on Archer, for the reasons outlined by Rigil.
However it is clear that the basis of the episode is, so to speak again, a definite plan: to make T'Pol stay a little with Archer, in the absence of Trip, and to show the connection existing between the Captain and his First Officer. I think, that all in all, a desire to bring a little ahead the aborted germ of a possible history between these two was still present in the minds of some people.
But this, in truth, was no longer possible, so it came out of a strange episode, not too credible in many respects.

I will count a few:

1) Archer seems to be stronger and more resistant than the Vulcans themselves.
2) Archer takes upon himself the katra of Surak, without logical reasons.
3) T'Pol's in the role of the weak little woman.
4) T'Pau is too "big", mentally, for the age that she actually has.

But not a few other points may come to mind, and if, perhaps, about the last two enumerated by me, some may disagree, on the first two I do not think that this could happen.

Then, it is horrifying to me how things are resolved when there is the major meeting with the revelation of the writings of Surak to the Vulcans: The Great Archer (and, please believe me, that I personally love some nuances in the character of Archer that would have deserved more attention, instead of making him a hero a little stolid) and the promise for the new future of Vulcan, T 'Pau, come fully into play.
Well, probably I do not like neither heroes nor, even less, the Superheroes.

Perhaps the only really good scene, for me, is when T'Less dies in the arms of T'Pol.
On the other hand, forgive my irony, it was necessary to redeem in some way T'Less.
I can not help but think of her as a mother not exactly "well set up".

Oh, two last things.
1) About the diplomatic skill of Trip and Archer.
Well, surely, Mr. Tucker does not seem to shine in this, if we are to judge by what we saw on TV.
But, honestly, seems Archer, to you, more equipped?

2)Rightly Rigil said: ... and the last thing you would want to do on a mission like this is send him and T'Pol on a life-threatening, super dangerous mission with how strained their relationship is at the moment.
Mh... I beg you not to forget that if one wanted to do, this would have been a great way to "fix" things between them.
The death of T'Pol's mother and her tears, before an observing ad thoughtful Trip, would have been a splendid path to follow so as to reach this aim. Yet, and unfortunately and maybe even a little on purpose, it hasn't been wanted this to be done. You know, Archer apart,... angst, angst and yet angst.

[Silverbullet]

Yes, it has been commented on that the Arc was an attempt to bring a thing between T'Pol and Archer in to play. Personally I didn't believe it worked.But I am biased.

Trip could be diplomatic. He certainly was when he prevented that war between the Andorians and the vulcans.

Trip was in great condition. He may have not liked the desert but doesn't mean he could not function in the Forge with T'Pol's help. As noted by Asso this would have brought them closer together.

This way too T'Pol could carry the Katra of Surak a more logical choice than Archer.

When T'Les dies in t'Pol's arms if Trip had been there he too could have forgiven T'Les and helped T'Pol with her grief. She would have turned to him more willingly than to Archer. If she turned to anyone.

Soval could suggest until the cows come home. Archer's place was on Vulcan leading the nvestigation. Instead it left Trip to do it. As far as Iam concerned Archer deserted his post. He had no busisiness going down to the surface wit T'Pol. Again why in Hell didn't t'Pol go to Trip and ask hm to accompany her if she wanted company.

SB

[Alelou]

[Rigil Kent]

However it is clear that the basis of the episode is, so to speak again, a definite plan: to make T'Pol stay a little with Archer, in the absence of Trip, and to show the connection existing between the Captain and his First Officer. I think, that all in all, a desire to bring a little ahead the aborted germ of a possible history between these two was still present in the minds of some people.

Uh ... what? I don't think anyone saw that but people who were looking for it. By this point, it's patently clear that the AinT ship is dead and buried. Thematically, the point of Archer going down there with T'Pol is for his character to come full circle: where once he hated everything that Vulcans represented, thanks to working alongside T'Pol, he has gained new respect and, thanks to Surak, ends up not only understanding them but also helping to save them.

Archer seems to be stronger and more resistant than the Vulcans themselves.

Which, if you read what I stated, I clearly said I disliked. All four seasons had examples of this bad writing.

Archer takes upon himself the katra of Surak, without logical reasons.

Disagree. There are clear thematic reasons for this. He's the Outsider, who is unburdened by what they've been taught. The addition of Surak's katra also allows him to gain greater understanding of the Vulcan culture and move past his bigotry.

T'Pol's in the role of the weak little woman.

How is that any different from the way she was written throughout the show? It's a consistent motif, and T'Pol is far from the only character who suffers from this when around Archer (again, bad writing.)

T'Pau is too "big", mentally, for the age that she actually has.

I have absolutely no idea what that means. She's too wise for her age?

1) About the diplomatic skill of Trip and Archer.
Well, surely, Mr. Tucker does not seem to shine in this, if we are to judge by what we saw on TV.
But, honestly, seems Archer, to you, more equipped?

Yes. He got the Andorians and the Vulcans together, and was the driving force (whether you like to admit it or not) behind the Coalition. This is another example of "tell, not show" admittedly, but he's supposed to have actual diplomatic training, whereas Tucker is an engineering geek who was evidently closeted in the Warp Five program until ENT launched.

2)Rightly Rigil said: ... and the last thing you would want to do on a mission like this is send him and T'Pol on a life-threatening, super dangerous mission with how strained their relationship is at the moment.
Mh... I beg you not to forget that if one wanted to do, this would have been a great way to "fix" things between them.
The death of T'Pol's mother and her tears, before an observing ad thoughtful Trip, would have been a splendid path to follow so as to reach this aim.

Yes, let's forever link in T'Pol's mind her mother's death and Trip's presence. For that matter, she's still married at this point.

Yes, it has been commented on that the Arc was an attempt to bring a thing between T'Pol and Archer in to play.

Bovine excrement. The only people who have stated that are people looking for it. Like you, evidently.

Trip could be diplomatic. He certainly was when he prevented that war between the Andorians and the vulcans.

Oh, Lord, are you serious? First instance, he parked the ship between the two warring factions and targeted them, which made them hesitate long enough for Soval & Shran to reach an agreement. Second instance, he abandoned his post (against the instructions of Starfleet, I believe, for those of you who keep harping on Archer "abandoning his post"), managed to allow Soval to get abducted by Shran who tortured him. In the end, it was Soval who convinced Shran to not start a war, not Tucker.

When T'Les dies in t'Pol's arms if Trip had been there he too could have forgiven T'Les and helped T'Pol with her grief.

She was still married! Didn't I see a thing here recently about the unlikelihood of either of them cheating while she's married.

She would have turned to him more willingly than to Archer.

Seriously, why do you keep going to this? That ship was dead at this point. Everyone knows it.

As far as Iam concerned Archer deserted his post. He had no busisiness going down to the surface wit T'Pol.

And from what I've gathered, as far as you're concerned, Archer can't do a single thing right. If he had stayed on the ship and sent Trip planetside, you'd be griping that he ordered Tucker to his death. It's gotten to the point that I, far from an Archer fan as anyone can tell you, tend to find myself defending him more and more.

:deadhorse:

No doubt. I'm actually at the point where I'm about to just throw my hands up and walk away entirely. Your early comment about wanting to replace Super!Archer with Super!Trip seems to be more and more accurate all the time.

Ugh.

[putaro]

Dead horse beating aside,would Trip, the character, be happier if he had been the one to carry Surak around, the one being involved in all the diplomatic and political stuff? I don't think that's the kind of stuff that he would find fulfilling.

Putting Trip through all that would probably mean changes in him, moving him more towards the Archer mold and ruining the character.

[Rigil Kent]

Dead horse beating aside,would Trip, the character, be happier if he had been the one to carry Surak around, the one being involved in all the diplomatic and political stuff? I don't think that's the kind of stuff that he would find fulfilling.

Can you imagine how much more complicated his relationship with T'Pol would become if he had the Surak katra? Gah. If the season 4 angst wasn't already overblown enough...