The Forge

[Silverbullet]

Do you think it should have been Trip rather than Archer who accompanied T'Pol in to the Forge to search for her Mother. Trip had been on Vulcan before, he was somewhat familiar with the heat and the gravity. Trip also knew T'Les. Archer was not familiar with the Heat, gravity o r knew T'Les..

Archer supposedly was to lead the Earth side of the investigation in to the bombing of the Earth embassy.

What do you think?

SB

[Alelou]

I don't necessarily think it should have been him, but I'm going to play with a version in which he is the one (if I ever get it written, anyway).

In terms of storytelling, though, I think it's actually more interesting to have the guy who's always distrusted Vulcans carry around the father of Vulcan logic in his head. (I could have done without some of the more irritating Super!Archer and Weenie!T'Pol elements in that, though.)

Also, Trip has a terrible track record in deserts and probably ought to avoid them. Also, with Archer and T'Pol away, Trip's side of the arc was nonetheless very interesting and gave his character a lot more command credibility.

[WarpGirl]

My mother and I both love Captain Trip far too much to send him down to his death in the desert!

[Silverbullet]

Never bought that Desert crap about Trip.

He lied i Florida which can get quite hot. So heat would not bother him that much.Also, he was (I believe) 17 years Archers junior and in great shape (as good or better than Archer's despite the writers) So there is no real rason for him to avoid deserts any more than Archer. I hated that episode where Archer drags Trip all over Hell and gone in the Desert. I don't see Trip being that weak. (I will say that the writers made look that way: In the Andorian Incident he gets to winded wrestling with that andorian he cannot go any furhther and he lays on the floor holding a phaser on another Andorian. Trip could be tough when the script needed it but that was rare.)

SB

[Distracted]

Florida heat is wet. Desert heat is not. I can buy that a person unused to dry heat might have difficulty with the desert. You're right that it doesn't make sense that Archer wouldn't have the same problem, but being accustomed to Florida (or south Louisiana) heat doesn't make you more tolerant to the desert. I know this from personal experience.

[Kotik]

I have to respectfully disagree, Distracted. Trip is accustomed to the humid Florida heat, as shown in "Prescious Cargo"

KAITAAMA: This heat is unbearable.
TUCKER: It's nothing compared to a summer in the Everglades. At least there aren't any mosquitoes.

That means he is accustomed to the worst sort of heat there is. The high humidity hinders perspiration, which is why humid heat is much more dangerous and uncomfortable than the dry heat of the desert. This whole Trip-in-the-desert malarkey was a plot contrivance to make him look weak in comparison to Super!Archer. Unless Trip's problems are of psychosomatic nature, there is no logical reason for him to suffer in the desert, while being perfectly fine in the opressive heat of the everglades or that swamp planet in "Prescious Cargo".

[putaro]

I have to respectfully disagree, Distracted. Trip is accustomed to the humid Florida heat, as shown in "Prescious Cargo"

You're talking through your hat. The record high temperature for the Everglades is 40C (104F). I used to go backpacking in the California desert where it averages 42C (107F) in the summer and it easily hits 48C (120F). The dry heat will suck the moisture right out of you. We would usually carry 4 or 5 liters of water for an overnight trip. Heading into the desert without enough water is suicide. High humidity will make you miserable and you will overheat more easily but the absolute temperature is still important.

[Kotik]

48°C of dry heat is a lot less troublesome than 40"C in the 'glades. In the desert, you'll sweat like a pig, but if you drink enough, the perspiration will do it's job just fine, while in a wet heat you'll overheat very easily. Trip's alleged problems make no sense. I've been to Malaysia, where you hit 40°C at 80% humidity. I've also been to the Karakorum and Gobi deserts, not to forget the 6 months in the ill-fated Somalia mission. I know the difference between dry and humid heat. Gimme a week in the Gobi over a single day in Malaysia any day.

[Alelou]

I didn't see Archer and T'Pol or Archer and Trip carrying around multiple liters of water in the desert, which is kind of the point. You may personally prefer a dry heat to a wet heat, but obviously it's not the same in terms of risk to your health. I'm with Distracted (who's a doctor), and I also speak from experience as a Florida girl. Florida heat and humidity is no preparation for desert conditions.

You guys really can't cope with the idea that your hero has any weaknesses, can you? You despise Super!Archer, yet you appear to want Super!Trip in his place. But Trip wouldn't be nearly as charming if he were a superhero instead of an interestingly flawed character.

[Asso]

Speaking professionally, I must say that Kotik is absolutely right. In fact, the dry heat is less dangerous than the humid heat, which, moreover, carries with it consequences that can not be attributed simply to the heat.

However there is a problem, in that episode, once again due to the clear intent of the authors to make Archer the big macho and to make Trip virtually dependent on him. Both do not have water, if I remember correctly, or in any case have little. In this situation, their survival under the conditions shown by the episode is virtually zero.

Do not forget, also, the problem of heat stroke, which hangs over both, and that kills.

What do I mean? Simply this: in such conditions they would both be dead very quickly. At most, one of them could have stood a little more than the other, but not significantly. And his survival a little longer would be mainly attributable to the age, ie the youngest, and, therefore, more resistant, on equal conditions of health and (which is supposed to be, considering that both have had or should have had proper training - if not, let me say that Starfleet would not be worth anything) on equal physical training, would have lived longer, enduring a little better and a little longer the deadly heat of the desert.

Then? Guess who was in these conditions?

Well, obviously a superman would endure better the desert heat. A superman, sure, just this one.
SuperArcher? Oh yeah.

[Kotik]

You guys really can't cope with the idea that your hero has any weaknesses, can you? You despise Super!Archer, yet you appear to want Super!Trip in his place. But Trip wouldn't be nearly as charming if he were a superhero instead of an interestingly flawed character.

That's quite a line of bull to be honest. Nobody wants to substitute Super!Archer with Super!Trip. But I think both Trip and T'Pol were too often made to look weak in order to make Archer look better. Trip had his best moments when Archer was nowhere near ("Cease Fire", Vulcan Arc). Nobody wants him to come back from the desert looking like he just came back from a hairdressers appointment, but his weaknesses were too often exaggerated either for comic relief or to emphasize Archers greatness. His exaggerated uselessness in the desert was such a thing.

[Distracted]

Wow. I go to bed and come back to a smack-down brawl.

I'd first like to point out that since this is an entirely fictional scenario with unknown temperatures and humidity, it's meaningless for us to make guesses about how the characters "should" have been able to deal with it. But....

I made no statement about the comparative dangerousness of dry heat vs wet heat. I merely said that being experienced with wet heat would not necessarily make one more tolerant of dry heat. In fact, wet heat is the more physically dangerous of the two. Because the humidity prevents evaporative cooling via sweating, heat stroke can occur at much lower temperatures. A person can also become dehydrated before feeling thirsty because the mouth takes longer to feel "dry", so early hydration is more critical.

In the complete absence of water all of that becomes a moot point, though. Has it occurred to anyone that maybe both Archer and Trip were on the verge of collapse and that the only reason why Archer was still conscious was that he was in charge and therefore didn't have any other option? The man's nothing if not stubborn. Maybe Trip trusted his captain and decided to conserve his energy.

[Asso]

And one more time I can't help but being in total agreement with Kotik.
See, Alelou, personally, I would want simply real men, with their weaknesses and their strengths.

[Asso]

...Has it occurred to anyone that maybe both Archer and Trip were on the verge of collapse and that the only reason why Archer was still conscious was that he was in charge and therefore didn't have any other option? The man's nothing if not stubborn. Maybe Trip trusted his captain and decided to conserve his energy.

An explanation a little weak, if I can allow me to say it, but all in all it has to be taken for what it is, right Distracted? Cute, though.

[Cogito]

Wasn't there some mention of these two having gone through survival training in Australia? Anyone remember what happened during their training? Or did I only imagine that?