What happened?

[WarpGirl]

The issue that was brought up described T'Pol as capricious, insensitive, and uncaring about Trip's pain with their situation. That is what I find unfair about this. I'm not saying that T'Pol didn't make massive mistakes! She absolutely did, and she said things that were hurtful and confusing.

My point is that Trip did the exact same thing! Neither of them set out to get into the mess that they did. But life does that, things happen and you make the choices you think are right at the time, and it turns out you made things worse! What started in Harbinger set off a set of events that made things nearly impossible for them to make things better.

What I can't stand is when people try to shove off "blame" onto one of them, or an outsider like T'Les when they are responsible for there own actions. Trip can't blame T'Pol for the choices he made, T'Pol can't blame Trip for the choices she made, they can't blame T'Les for the choices they both made.

There is no Angel in this and there is no Devil. There's enough fault and empathy to go around for everyone.

[Weeble]

This thread has been quite thought provoking for me. I am reminded the many differing ways the male and female of the human species see things and even then there is a great deal of inconsistency. The only real disagreement I have is with Warp Girl; I saw both of them clearly getting it at the end of Terra Prime which is why I am appalled by the suggestion in the episode that shall not be named (kinda like the land of Mordor) that they had grown apart. BULLPUCKY!

Now be nice WG.

To me S3 wound its way toward a real relationship for TnT. S4 shows writers uncomfortable with their creation, but not sure what to do with it. The chemistry and acting skills of TnT put some fair lipstick on that pig. Remember the show was supposed to be about superArcher and his character just didn't have it. So they wrote it like he did anyway.

back under my rock now....

[panyasan]

Ok, before we start a slugging match out here, let's have a look at what happened:

We saw that Trip didn't fight the marriage and we got to know the reason why, but there are still two things that have yet to be answered. It is pretty obvious that Trip was the one who was in the least possible situation to do anything. He was on a foreign planet and in a cultural environment largely unknown to him and he had the decency to not force his ethical views on T'Les and T'Pol.
The thing I don't understand is why T'Pol and T'Les didn't do anything. It would have been an easy thing to do for T'Les to go into the Earth Embassy and wait for her transport off-world. She must have known that things were starting to go wrong. Instead of searching for a solution, she sold her daughter off. It may have been the right thing by Vulcan tradition, but it was the wrong thing to do for the good of her daughter and she knew it at least in the end. T'Pol also just let it happen and her actions before the ceremony showed that she knew how much she hurt Trip with it.

How was Trip supposed to react afterward? I can imagine that her info of having not consummated her marriage did help him to fight the pain. That way he at least didn't have to imagine some other man taking the woman he loved. The Romeo-and-Juliet comment makes sense. He said it mostly for is own benefit. Knowing what he knew about Vulcans, he expected T'Pol to resign to her duties as a wife, so all hope was lost and speaking from experience, you need some excuse to put more space between you and a loved one after a break-up and that was the only thing Trip could come up with.

The TnT relationship became unrealistic after the Vulcan arc. T'Pol should have gone to Trip for help or at least to share the news with him. Now people may make a big deal about the grief over her mums death, but she didn't look that distressed to me while on the planet. I think she was at least coherent enough to think about the one, who endured her marriage to another. The whole secluding herself in "Daedalus" didn't make any sense to me.

The first indications that any crew member got to know about her released marriage was Malcolm's comment on the drone ship and the scene with Archer in the captain's mess. We never got any indication that Trip knew before the others. If the whole TnT thing didn't jump the shark in "Home" it did in "Daedalus" at the latest. Of course that doesn't stop us making up some outlandish theories to still make it work.

I don't think we're slugging, Kotik. We were just showing the other side of the coin and that T'Pol isn't uncaring or indifferent towards Trip's wellbeing or deliberately tries to make his life worse.

As for the rest of your post, I agree. As I pointed out, the only way I can explain Trip's remark about Romeo and Juliet is finding an excuse for himself to get away from T'Pol and his pain. But for T'Pol herself, it must have come across as "I didn't have faith in the relationship any way." I think a lot of their problems could have been avoided if they talked about what their relationship went before they went to Vulcan.

As for T'Pol not doing anything to avoid the marriage - today on Earth millions of girls/women are still told to marry the man her family have selected. The cultural boundaries make it impossible for them to do something about it. As T'Pol says to Trip "I don't have a choice."

As for "Daedalus" - I can understand T'Pol's grieving, but I have so much trouble with that episode. Seriously, I became so depressed about it.

The only good thing about it is the way T'Pol very gently tells Trip that she needs to concentrate on her "what a Vulcan truly is", but it still raises questions with me. I also got the feeling she is stepping down from someone she deeply loves, but she thinks she has no choice.

[Silverbullet]

We have established that Malcolm told Trip that T'Pol's marriage was ended while they were on that drone ship. T'Pol informed Archer at dinner in the Captains mess. Why she told Archer and not Trip is unexplained. If she wanted him to know that she had not consummated the marriage she certainly should have wanted him to know her marriage was over.

Yes, there are still arranged marriages in certain countries. But you have to know why certain marriages are arranged. Political, economic, or both, alliances among the wealthy are usually the reason. Often these marraige4s are more sham than anything. Once a son and Heir is born then the couple more or less go their own way.

I once met a General's wife in a Muslim Countiry. she was quite frank. she had produced a Son. The husband started to take other women. He claimed that the Koran allowed him to have four wives and as many concubines as he could treat equally. She could do as she liked as long as she was discreet. If she got caught it was her hide.

T'Pol believed she was doing the right thing when she married Koss. It was so that her mother could resume her position in the Acadmy. However, her mother constantly lied to her. In the Episode home T'Les often would not look T'Pol in the eye or face her. T'Les knew she would not be taking that Acadmy position again. She set her daughter up. I never liked T'Les. I thought she richly deserved what happened to her in the Forge.

SB

[panyasan]

Yes, there are still arranged marriages in certain countries. But you have to know why certain marriages are arranged. Political, economic, or both, alliances among the wealthy are usually the reason. Often these marraige4s are more sham than anything. Once a son and Heir is born then the couple more or less go their own way.

I am sorry SB, but how is this any different from T'Pol's situation? It certainly looked like politics, economics and alliances among wealthy families are the reasons behind this so called marriage. Jugding from T'Pol's home - the family is or used to be rich and jugding from T'Les's actions involved in politics.

[Silverbullet]

Panysanne, that is not the way I remember the Episode. Koss and T'Pol are in the Garden. T'Pol tells Koss to leave. Koss walks to the way outside, pauses and then tells T'Pol the reason for T'Les no longer being at the Acadmy. she did not retire she was forced out.

Koss goes on to say that his daddy is well connected and can get T'les Reinstated. IF, T'Pol agrees to marry Koss. No political alliances there. Just pure and simple blackmail.

T'Les has been helping. It has never been explained to me how that letter from Koss was waiting for T'Pol. As far as in the Episode goes T'Pol did not tell anyone but her mother that she was returning to Vulcan. So, how did Koss know. Only way was Mother telling him.

In the discussion before T'Pol opens the letter she says that Koss is her ex fiance and T'Les says that is not necessarily true meaning that koss may be still her fiance.

T'Pol opens the letter, announces that Koss wants to see her. T'pol says she has nothing to say to koss and does not want to see him. T'Les insists that T'Pol see Koss and the look on the face of T'Les is quite hard.

Later T'Les tells T'Pol that a marriage to Trip would be bad and that any children would suffer. T'Les does not look at T'Pol while she says this.

So, T'Les does not tell T'Pol that she has joined a group that is going in to the Forge to search for Suvak's Katra. She leaves out that little bit of information also that she won't be returning to the Acadmy anyway so T'Pol need not marry Koss. That too T'Les leaves out

T'Pol is whipsawed.

Trip is the only one who really stands by her and wants what T'Pol believes is best in this situation although it is tearing him apart.

SB

[WarpGirl]

The only real disagreement I have is with Warp Girl; I saw both of them clearly getting it at the end of Terra Prime which is why I am appalled by the suggestion in the episode that shall not be named (kinda like the land of Mordor) that they had grown apart. BULLPUCKY!

Now be nice WG.

First of all, I think Terra Prime was a start, a beginning, a step in the right direction... however, we were screwed and cheated out of seeing a stable comitted relationship. Even in Terra Prime Trip didn come out and say "I want to spend my life with you." He just hinted at it. Hints don't build solid lasting relationships.

Second of all, I hope I was nice.

[Weeble]

you were nice. I base my thoughts on Terra Prime on Trip's comments as he entered her quarters and the hand holding. shameless plug For further development of this topic read "Forks in the Road" end shameless plug

[WarpGirl]

Like I said it was a great beginning but hardly a clear statement of intentions. He didn't say, "there's no reason we can't have a child.

He said, "There's no reason why a vulcan and a human can't have a child."

The former would have made his intentions clear beyond any doubt. What he did say was that he was hoping they could try. According to the B's they did try, and failed! That was wrong...

[Asso]

Mh, ​​I do not know, I do not understand. Maybe I really come from another planet.

You see, I am firmly convinced that, regardless of any outside force, the only real and true reason for which a man and a woman should marry is that they love each other. We can argue endlessly about everything that can stand behind what I call a fake marriage, but this (ie mutual love), is, I believe, the only and indisputable truth, the only and indisputable reason for which a man and a woman can think to share their lives.

Starting from this assumption and ignoring all the horrible things that I think of T'Less and Koss (the words: vile and treacherous liars, may they suffice?) I can not help but think that the marriage between T'Pol and Koss is de facto a non-marriage. It is nothing. I repeat: NOTHING. So, frankly, if T'Pol had decided to give to Trip what was of Trip, even after her insubstantial marriage, to me this would have been not at all an adultery.

And, frankly, I care little of what Vulcans can think. To be honest, in the matter of T'Pol's marriage, they seem to me behave EXACTLY as Humans.

[WarpGirl]

<sigh> Well in the end the question was "What would T'Pol do?" Not, "what do we believe and feel marriage is and should be."

[Weeble]

Transcript Time!!

TUCKER: There's something else. I spoke with Phlox. It turns out there was a flaw in the technique that Paxton's doctors used in the cloning process. Human DNA and Vulcan DNA, Phlox says there's no medical reason why they can't combine. So if a Vulcan and a human ever decided to have a child, it'd probably be okay. And that's sort of comforting.
(T'Pol takes his hand)

Jeeze Louise he's bawling his eyes out

WG I think you are not seeing what is there. I am also of the opinion that TnT acted like a grumpy married couple more than anything else during Demons and TP. Maybe only an optimist such as me sees things this way. I also remember the end of Bound. Trip's gotta a lot of work to do comment and T'Pol's facial expressions were clear to me. They are a pair, and thank goodness for it.

returning soapbox to closet.

[Alelou]

As to the original question... I believe T'Pol considers herself temporarily bound to a marriage of convenience that she was forced into, but I think she also considers Trip her real love (or at least subconsciously recognizes him as her bond mate). Based on her attempts to puncture his aloofness when she gets back from Vulcan, I think she might have been fine with an adulterous relationship. After all, she was clearly fine with fornication. Who's to say a Vulcan would suddenly see such moral line between one and the other? Also, honestly, it might be more convenient for her -- Trip won't live nearly as long as she does, he isn't Vulcan, and it's not like he has proposed marriage (that we know of). She could conceivably look at their physical connection aboard Enterprise as the best she could ever get from this human.

I don't, however, believe that Trip would have been fine with it. And if he were ever weak and gave in to temptation, I think he'd be miserable about it and probably lose some respect for her in the process.

As to Weeble's comment. Yeah, I want to think that and I agree they played it that way. But I was also irritated that the script left it vague. There's room for either interpretation.

[WarpGirl]

I don't see why anyone has to get on a "soap box" at all. But I would say that T'Pol might have been fine with humans fornicating because that's their customs. She never showed any interest in fornicating herself until she was high as a kite on the equivilant of alien crack! Sure that's a perfectly reasonable way to start developing your sexuality. and if that's the reasoning used to say that she'd be fine with adultry all I can say it that it's highly illogical!

As for them being an "old married couple" after Bound, if that's just the beginning for them, no wonder they broke up! And good for them. Now I guess I'll disappear...

[Alelou]

You can reasonably argue she only jumped Trip because she was high on alien crack. Just as you could reasonably argue she made a calculation that if she didn't, the man she loved was going to end up in Amanda Cole's bed. Or both. While I might be willing to believe that T'Pol would see no great reason to engage in sex before marriage, she also has no particular reason at this point in her life to expect she will ever be married, or have sex, if she doesn't do it with Trip. Their mission verges on suicidal, she said no to Koss's parents, and she has a dread disease that may make her unmarriageable. If a bond has begun to form, and especially on Trellium-D, she would presumably be desiring him at least as much as he wants her. I'm also not aware of any great moral strictures against losing one's virginity on Vulcan. The way the Vulcans we see on Enterprise discuss sex (I'm thinking T'Pol and Kov here), there's no indication of sexual purity or virginity being valued -- instead, they discuss it fairly mechanically for the humans and for themselves as part of an embarrassing biological mating cycle.