What happened?

[Alelou]

It's fine conjecture, SB. The scenes with other people, however, aren't necessarily not happening at the same time. While the convention is that they wouldn't go back in time, there's no reason why different seasons shown in order can't overlap a little. I think they may even want us to think of Hayes and Reed as exploding at the same time Trip and T'Pol are tussling in a different way.

But on your side, there's the fact that TnT are both in uniform and neither looks particularly rumpled or harried when we see them again.

[Silverbullet]

Alelou, you are correct that they are both in Uniform and don't look harried.

It is that damned time Frame again.

Another thing. why should the Senior Officers have to report to their stations? Engineering would be fully staffed (although in the scenes there it was dark and trip seemed to be the only one in engineering.) Not possible. On the Bridge. There would be the evening shift of competent people who could have tracked the alien as well as T'Pol. The writers obviously wanted Trip and T'Pol out of bed and in Uniform and at their stations. Stupid

Harbinger was one of the worse episodes in the series. It was disjointed, senseless. It should have been two episodes, one involving the alien and the other Trip and T'Pol's romp in the sack.

SB

[Alelou]

Enterprise is neither a soap opera nor a romance: it's a science fiction adventure show. It would never have spent an entire episode on Trip and T'Pol. In Star Trek relationships are ALWAYS the B-plot (or C-plot or D-plot), unless perhaps the relationship is itself the science fiction plot, as occasionally happens (your new boyfriend turns into a girlfriend when it gets a new host body, you fall in love with a holodeck character, etc). And because it's a show, our actors already under contract are the ones who actually experience everything, even if it flies in the face of reality. (I mean, come on. Does Hoshi EVER sleep?)

However... if there had been a call to general quarters in real life, wouldn't everyone be at his duty station? Perhaps some navy guys can weigh in on that?

Anyway, this is why we have fanfic, so we can go to town on the stuff we really care about without worrying about the formal structure of the show.

I think it's quite a successful episode, as Enterprise episodes go. I was interested and entertained by all three plot lines, and they intertwined very nicely. Reed and Hayes were a great counter-point to Trip and T'Pol, and the alien thing actually did advance the long-term plot about the sphere builders, with elements that would become important as that year's episodes climaxed in the final battle.

My only real critique would be that we never see Amanda Cole again, and the special effects with Trip and the alien in Engineering looked weird/amateurish.

[Silverbullet]

Alelou, you would think that the director or somebody would realize that Engineering would be staffed. Engineering is the most important section on board. NO way would it not be staffed round hte clock. Yet, Trip seems to be alone i Engineering when the alien attacks him.That always bothered me.

You may have liked the Episode but I thought it was crappy. different strokes for different folks.

SB

[Alelou]

I would tend to agree with you about engineering staffing, but it's not a big enough deal to turn me off the episode.

As you say, different strokes.

[Silverbullet]

Alelou, I guess I got spoiled about accuracy from the "Golden Age of Science Fiction" Many of the writers were scientists. Lots of them wanted to be as accurate as possible.

Assimov went to a lot of trouble making sure he ws accurate in his writings. He said his fans would old his feet to te fire if they found a piece that was not accurate.

Others were in the same boat.

So, Engineering not being staffed was, for me, a glaring mistake.

Also, instead of the Sendinh Senior Officers, Archer should have called out Security to take care of the alien that was their job. You call out the subordinates first, then if necessary, the senior Officers. If the Subordinates cannot handle the situation they should be replaced.

Writers screwed the Pooch good in Harbinger.

SB

[Alelou]

Really? The writers screwed the pooch just because engineering was shown as empty and the senior officers got called to duty? As you say, different strokes. Asimov was great, but could he write a good 44-minute teleplay in a continuing drama series, on their schedule? (Why would he even want to?) Comparing the writers of novels and short stories who have near-total control over their product to writers of television shows just isn't fair.

But this is an old debate here.

[Distracted]

Asimov probably isn't a good example. The man could write ANYTHING... and did. But I definitely see your point.

[Alelou]

Harlan Ellison was quite bitter about the rewriting of "City on the Edge of Forever," although you could still argue that was the best TOS episode. I remember seeing a supposedly Stephen King written episode of the X-Files and thinking that he must be feeling pretty bitter, too. No one would argue that it was the best, but I think it was safe to say it had clearly also run through Chris Carter's typewriter. There was another dude who wrote about people uploading themselves onto the net that was much more successful, but I've forgotten the author's name.

Did TNG ever attract any celebrity writers? I'm thinking not, but I don't remember.

[putaro]

Putaro, I have always thought that T'Pol was a Virgin when she seduced Trip. I think that if she had any other sexual relationship, however brief, she would have formed a bond with that being. since she did not have a bond of any kind I use that as the basis for thinking she was a virgin.

My opinion is that bonds do not form just because Vulcans have sex. T'Pol's description of it was:

"There's a long-held belief that when a Vulcan mates, there's a shared psychic bond. "

Trip, I think, chose to interpret "mate" as "have sex" and get upset (as usual). However, T'Pol is usually precise and "mate" can also mean "to join in marriage."

My belief is that the "mate bond" would only form if there's actually strong emotion on both side.

Re the every seven years and T'Pol being able to get it on whenever she wanted to. since a female Vulcan would not know when the onset of her mates Pon Far would begin she would have to be receptive at any time. So the Vulcan female has the ability to have sex on demand or when she wants.

Except that T'Pol went into pon farr and ENT messed everything up again

Did TNG ever attract any celebrity writers? I'm thinking not, but I don't remember.

I can't remember any. But I'm not a big TNG fan. "City on the Edge of Forever" is probably one of the better TOS character pieces. For straight SF, I like "The Doomsday Machine", written by Norman Spinrad.

[WarpGirl]

If Vulcans only formed bonds through sex they would never feel any sexual attraction outside of their mates. This isn't true: Spock did, Tuvok did TWICE, (maybe more if you go with the theory he was attracted to Janeway) and so on. Bonds are incredibly important, they're necessary to let one mate know when the other is in Pon Farr, they strengthen the relationship, and they're cool alien mojo! That said, it's not a guarenteed psychic chastity belt!

Now, if a mated pair is in close contact every single day and never ever separated for a long period of time, then I'd be willing to bet that neither partner would desire another person. If however, a couple is constantly separated for long stretches of time, it's plausible that other desires could come into play. BUT the bond would make it extremely HARD (again see Tuvok) for a Vulcan to ACT on them. It's possible, but they're literally tearing themselves in two.

Now, do I think T'Pol was bonded before Trip? NOPE! Do I think she had sex before Trip? NOPE! If she didn't want her own fiancee, I doubt she'd make an even bigger mess by having flings. Besides, Soval is so overprotective, and she's such a workaholic where would she get the oppertunities or the time?

So you can BOTH be right!

[Silverbullet]

T'Pol' supposed Pon Far was set off by something she cam ein to contact with on the surface of a lanet. It was a false Pon Far not real. Supposedly if she did not mate (have Sex with) a male she would die. (I don't remember Spock or Tuvok dying because they didn't have sex with a female during their Pon Far) Phlox evidetily put her in to a deep sleep and she passed through the crisis without matng. Her Pon Far was never mentioned again in the series. in e2 the old T'Pol did not mention Pon Far so it seems that Vulcan females do not experience Pon Far as such but respond to the call of their mate to help them through the male Pon Far.

I ran Harbinger again last night. Once again their is no time frame. No indication of how much time elapsed between scenes. So it is conjecture for anyone.

I choose to believe that here was sufficient time for Trip and T'POl to do more than just take off their clothes and have a quickie. If you watch Harbinger that would seem to be all that they did have time for as they both were in uniform right away right after the alarm went off. Takes a few minutes to get dressed.I also would think that T'Pol and trip would want to shower too. (I was one of those clowns who showered right after having Sex, drove some females nuts.)

SB

[WarpGirl]

This might be a radical concept but I'm going to put it out there for fun... What if a Vulcan's views on sex were as individual as we humans! I know, scary right? But think about it, the only thing we know for certain is that Vulcan males go through a natural Pon Farr cycle every seven years. It's canon that Vulcans can and do copulate at any time outside of the cycle.

Spock was attracted to the Cloud City Princess outside of his cycle and that was with a betrothal bond to T'Pring. T'Pring obviously had no qualms whatsoever having Stonn as her lover both before (and she would have had him) after Spock's Pon Farr. Tuvok was deeply attracted to two women before his Pon Farr cycle on VOY but when he finally had it, he needed T'Pel indicating their marriage bond was still plenty powerful and why he was able to resist temptation.

So what if cultural mores dictate fidelity (outside of the rare emergency) but in actuality Vulcans make the same choices anyone one of us eventually has to make? We know there are many different reasons Vulcans marry, and it became exceptable for them to marry outside of their spieces thanks to Sarek and his 2 human wives! It would make sense that the stronger the mental link between a pair the more difficult or impossible it would become to stray. Conversely, the weaker the link the easier to stray if that was what was wanted. But in the end you still have to make a choice!

Now, given that situation I think TnT (should they have decided not to act like two drunk sixteen yearl olds at Junior prom) would have a strong bond due to a deep and strong love and constant physical and psychic proximinity. Both of which would probably make it impossible for T'Pol to stray.

Trip being human still was immune to the Orian babes, but more importantly I think that being linked with T'Pol and knowing that not only did she want him but couldn't have anyone else, would probably kill any sort of non-monogomous inclinations dead emotionally. He wouldn't want anyone else because in his heart he couldn't and wouldn't hurt her like that. The fact that the bond messed up his hormones is irrelevant and he wouldn't resent that. Unlike some men I know.

[putaro]

This might be a radical concept but I'm going to put it out there for fun... What if a Vulcan's views on sex were as individual as we humans!

You mean use subtlety and nuance in writing instead of showing stereotypes? Perish the thought!

So, how many people think that T'Pol would have been willing to cheat on Koss with Trip?

[WarpGirl]

Okay I should point out that I do believe that *Publically* Vulcans would appear to be very puritanical. BUT they would appear that way because unlike we humans in the western world in particular they don't TALK about sex other than in a clinical context. That is their cultural norm, and frankly there is nothing wrong with that!

That said while T'Pring had no problems with the concept of infidelity, I'm convinced T'Pol would never consider it an option. I have several reasons for this...

1. Watch Stigma... in this episode where she is confronted with the ugliness in her own culture, she shows her loyalty to what is right.

2. Trip does not and would never enter into a sexual relationship with a married woman. He had offers, permission from the husband, and oppertunity to do so without any censure. But his conscience would never allow it. Now T'Pol might have made mistakes with her abilty to understand how to respond to certain values and feelings Trip has about many things, but she does respect him, and would never put him in a place where he would betray his own beliefs.

3. I think it's obvious by how she behaved after she was married, that she does respect the institution as her people define it. If she was a person who didn't care one way or another, why try to postpone and later cancel her betrothal to begin with?

So no I don't think T'Pol would ever consider adultry as an option.