What happened?

[Kotik]

Another thing all you guys and gals who are rooting for Macho!Trip! should keep in mind is the romantic trope classically exemplified in "The Princess Bride". Movies and TV shows are fantasy, not reality, and in certain situations the words "As you wish" can be the most seductive words that a man could ever say to a woman.

I don't think anyone is rooting for Macho!Trip as 'Macho' usually implies a lack of respect for the female. I think a really healthy relationship can only work if both sides are equally strong. If either the male or the female is submissive and lets his/her partner run roughshod over him/her is bound to be abused. That's basically what TnT was from Harbinger onwards. T'Pol called the shots and Trip just ate the crap he was served.

My opinion on that topic is bound to be a little more extreme as I spent four years in an abusive relationship - on the receiving end. I've mentioned that in some thread or other two years ago. I do know what it ends like, if you don't walk away in time. I ended up in the loony bin for four months and it took me almost two years and two more relapses of depression before I could watch my own likeness in the mirror with any self-respect. That's why I tend to skip most TnT scenes when rewatching season 4 episodes.

[lfvoy]

There is a good reason why many fanfic stories take their plot AU before or during home, because for some (me included) the TnT relationship jumped the shark at that point.

Kotik, out of curiosity, when did you become an ENT fan -- before or after the cancellation?

Reason I am asking this is because I absolutely disagree with this comment, but upon reflection I think it's because I may see "Home" differently than someone who first saw it on initial run. By the time I saw it, I already knew that the marriage didn't last. In light of that, I've often viewed the Vulcan marriage plot in "Home" as this show's take on TOS' "Amok Time" or TNG's "Haven." Except that in this case, the presence of a rival didn't lead to the wedding being called off (and the final scene between Trip and T'Les shows the reason why).

Was it contrived? Yes. Was it pointless? Absolutely! But this is the first time I've seen someone claim that the relationship jumped the shark at "Home." In my mind, the marriage issue jumped the shark at "Kir'Shara" when Koss released T'Pol for no reason. Thing is, I often got the impression that if the three-episode arc had been a four-episode arc, there might've been some time to make that more believable. And under Manny Coto's leadership in S4, it's at least a 50-50 shot that something like that could actually have happened.

I tend to fork my stories after Bound or Terra Prime, because we had at least some onscreen evidence that T'Pol had stopped abusing Trip, but you have to spend at least one chapter of making up stuff to instill any sense into their behaviour during season 4. I think Alelou made the best job of it in her missing scenes. The best prospect however is forking at the time of "Home".

I couldn't possibly find the relationship believable with a fork any earlier than immediately post "Terra Prime." That's because "Demons" and "Terra Prime" are the first time we see them starting to turn toward each other for support (of internal pain vs. external pain like Archer's supposed death at the end of S3) instead of away from each other...and it's the first time I really see the relationship as having any chance of making it at all. Romantic attraction can only take you so far; at some point, a relationship has to evolve into an emotional partnership and I quite frankly didn't see that happening until then.

I see a lot of S3 and S4 as the development of T'Pol's emotional maturity, which could perhaps be me putting on lenses to "make up stuff to instill any sense into their behavior." In S3, she had to confront the fact that her emotions exist (an issue which was handled terribly, IMO) and in S4 she had to figure out what to do with them. So I'm able to make it coherent that way. YMMV, though.

[Asso]

Putaro's evidence that T'Pol is not ignorant of sex but actually sophisticated about it makes sense -- except that it doesn't jibe with the mating every seven years thing and her lack of interest in recreational activities of that kind on Risa. I'm thinking that T'Pol can have the kind of worldly, informed view about sexual liaisons or interspecies couples that anyone who's well-read or well-informed can have (or think they have), without actually ever having had any.

This is not to say that any particular fic couldn't sell me on the idea that she's actually quite experienced. But, Putaro, even you haven't written T'Pol as experienced in your series, have you?

Her simply wanting a physical relationship with Trip also doesn't jibe with the jealousy we see from her quite continually in the series, right from season one. I am with Kotik on that point, even if I don't despair over Trip's manliness as quickly as he does.

I think a man who's really secure in his masculinity can let himself lose some face without freaking out. Yes, they pushed that right to the limit and beyond on Enterprise, but.. etc

I agree and I would add one thing.
Often (I think that this is due to the fact that this is a particularly attractive issue) it has been discussed and is discussed about the experience of T'Pol. I think, without much fear of being taken wrong, that women consider in general (without exaggerating, of course) a good thing they can give themselves to the man they love (or think they love), giving really to him everything of themselves. On the other hand, it is useless to deny that masculinity is scarcely able to prescind from the pride of possession, and possession means exactly possession. Perhaps it is wrong, maybe not, but I think it is a real fact, which is part of life.

Now, to return to the experience of T'Pol ...

What do they have, these notations I made, to do with the experience of T'Pol? Well, they have to do with it, my friends, oh yes, because it is very clear (though maybe someone will want to deny) that a very vast part of the charm that emanates from the relationship between Trip and T'Pol, stems from the perception that males and females have of what I said, a truth which, oddly enough, today appears often hard to be accepted. Oddly enough, I said, because in order to be advanced, it is not strictly necessary to deny our ancestral way of being.

In short, which experience had T'Pol?

In the show she says everything and its opposite, so frankly I do not think from her words you can obtain useful information about her experience.
Where, then, you can find some clue? Well, but in her behavior, by golly!
My friends ... but, honestly, do not you think that when it comes to matters of love, T'Pol behaves like an ignorant teenager (in a good way), shaking (yeah, just so!) and insecure?
Power of the script, made ​​on purpose or not!

[Kotik]

Kotik, out of curiosity, when did you become an ENT fan -- before or after the cancellation?

I became a fan after the cancellation (technically) because I had to wait for some DVD's to gravitate over to Germanyland. I've seen "Broken Bow" in German and "apalling" doesn't even begin to describe it. Just imagine each and every character (including aliens) speaking finest Oxford English and you have an idea how incredibly dull the German synchro is. So I only got to see the show once the english release on DVD was available over here.

So, one day I had the complete shebang in my mailbox and started to watch them in chronological order. By the time of "Breaking the Ice" I was totally sold on TnT, because Jolene and Connor had that unique chemistry between them, although the shallow me still insists that the hottest babes are Hoshi and T'Pau . When I watched "Home", I didn't know about the release of marriage later on, but I almost gave up. If it hadn't been for the spectacular views of Vulcan in "Home", I'd probably given up at that point. The plot was just so contrived but the visuals convinced me to soldier on. Make no mistake - the season 4 episodes were brilliant, buut the TnT side-plots were cringeworthy.

When I finally saw *the_abomination* I broke some things. I was stark raving mad for such a piece of mental diarrhea even being produced and the next day I asked a google to search for something (i dont remember the exact words) like 'These are the voyages utter shit' and across three or four intermediate steps I landed at HoT's archived version of "Desert Rose" by Drogna. The next one I read was the "Reconnecting" series by HopefulRomantic, because it is prominently mentioned on HoT's archive page. After that one I was determined to try my hand at writing fanfiction, which I had never done before, let alone in a foreign language.

[Alelou]

In love, I think T'Pol is clearly insecure, and it makes sense that she would be, since Vulcans aren't even supposed to date. As far as sex goes -- not so much. She did kiss Trip first and drop her robe, after all. She wasn't shy about bringing up the subject in season one, either. She thinks she can be all scientific and rational about it. When she makes her move on Trip she most likely truly believes that she is calmly exploring human sexuality instead of indulging in an act of jealous desperation. She keeps trying to keep him and her own feelings at bay with that line of thinking, until she realizes it just doesn't work and she's going to lose him. That approach-retreat pattern repeats over and over with them, and it's understandable that fans got sick of it. However, I think that given the two very different cultures they come from, it's not inconceivable that it would take them a loooong time to work out a whole lot of painful misunderstandings and miscommunications. That's part of the reason I enjoy this couple so much.

[Asso]

In love, I think T'Pol is clearly insecure, and it makes sense that she would be, since Vulcans aren't even supposed to date. As far as sex goes -- not so much. She did kiss Trip first and drop her robe, after all. She wasn't shy about bringing up the subject in season one, either...

Please do not underestimate the weaker sex, Alelou. Even if we talk of Vulcan weaker sex.

[Kotik]

This whole discussion gave me the final kick in the arse to finish part one of my story "Just Plane Crazy". I just sent it. It's a story that AU's after Kir'Shara.

[Distracted]

Please do not underestimate the weaker sex, Alelou. Even if we talk of Vulcan weaker sex.

Now that depends entirely on how you define weakness, buster. I defy you to endure natural childbirth.

[putaro]

Putaro's evidence that T'Pol is not ignorant of sex but actually sophisticated about it makes sense -- except that it doesn't jibe with the mating every seven years thing and her lack of interest in recreational activities of that kind on Risa.

T'Pol definitely views Humans as being oversexed. Her whole attitude about Risa doesn't seem that different from what I would expect from women I know.

The every seven years thing is a weird one. Obviously she can choose to have sex when it's not on that schedule.

I'm thinking that T'Pol can have the kind of worldly, informed view about sexual liaisons or interspecies couples that anyone who's well-read or well-informed can have (or think they have), without actually ever having had any.

That could be. It's not as though there's a huge amount of evidence to go on. Though, she was pretty clear about not wanting an emotional attachment. Would Vulcans even recognize an emotional attachment as being a valid basis for a relationship? With emotion being locked out, marriage bonds would be the only "non logical" reason for a marriage. I'm of the opinion that in the ENT timeframe, "marriage bonds" have been classified as myth and Vulcan marriages are, officially, just for procreation and possibly political reasons.

This is not to say that any particular fic couldn't sell me on the idea that she's actually quite experienced. But, Putaro, even you haven't written T'Pol as experienced in your series, have you?

I don't think I've really addressed it either way. Personally, I don't believe she would be a virgin at age 66, but I haven't gone through thinking about the whole backstory either. Her having previous interspecies (or Vulcan) relationships would certainly be contrary to most "fanon" and the subject would deserve more attention than I could give it in my plotline.

If Enterprise had kept going and they had continued the TnT relationship, pulling out T'Pol's past relationships and having Trip get all upset about them would have fit in with the usual writing.

Liberal and Vulcan are two words that usually do not belong in the same sentence.

True, but the definition of "liberal" and "conservative" are not hard and fast.

[Asso]

Please do not underestimate the weaker sex, Alelou. Even if we talk of Vulcan weaker sex.

Now that depends entirely on how you define weakness, buster. I defy you to endure natural childbirth.

Well, actually I meant to say, just because the weakness can be seen in various ways, that a woman knows very well how to pull out the nails and teeth, when she wants and when necessary, in all fields, including the one of relationship between the sexes. Therefore, T'Pol, in my opinion, was perfectly capable of doing what she did with Trip on that famous night of "Harbinger", whether she was experienced or she was not.

But, to answer you, Distracted ... Well, my lady, each has his own weaknesses and strengths. For example, I challenge women to endure the exhausting and exceedingly irritating hair loss that affects the male gender.

[Silverbullet]

Putaro, I have always thought that T'Pol was a Virgin when she seduced Trip. I think that if she had any other sexual relationship, however brief, she would have formed a bond with that being. since she did not have a bond of any kind I use that as the basis for thinking she was a virgin.

Re the every seven years and T'Pol being able to get it on whenever she wanted to. since a female Vulcan would not know when the onset of her mates Pon Far would begin she would have to be receptive at any time. So the Vulcan female has the ability to have sex on demand or when she wants.

I had asked a question in a previous post. "Do you think that Trip and t'Pol talked after having made love. I believe that there was at least half hour or better after T'Pol dropped her Robe and when the alarm whent off. Plenty of time to make love and talk. I am sure that if they talked it would be about their feelings for one another. If so this would put a different complextion on the morning after. T'Pol would know of trip's feelings for her and he of hers for him.When she turns on Trip and tells him that it was just an experiment she is lying in her teeth and Trip knows it.

SB

[Cogito]

That's an attractive view, SB.

The way I see it, Trip is probably much more experienced than T'Pol in being in romantic relationships, talking about them and dealing with the related uncertainty. Even so, during that 'morning after' scene Trip wanted to talk to T'Pol but was too timid to make any sign of commitment and took the cowardly way out by suggesting that T'Pol should explain how she felt first. I think that it would have been even harder for T'Pol to open up than it would have been for Trip, and especially after Trip had obviously just drawn back from making any sign of commitment what else was she expected to do other than take the emotionally safe way out and pretend that the whole thing was just an 'exploration'? From what was said before the robe dropped, they had both already admitted that they were jealous and I believe that they were being truthful at that time. I choose to think that both of them knew the following morning that was still the case and each knew that the other was simply too timid to admit it. They both let each other off the hook by quietly agreeing to continue the 'neuropressure' sessions and I like to think that after the initial experience in Harbinger one thing continued to lead to another ...

[Alelou]

I'd expect an oncologist to see plenty of women lose their hair. I guess guys are not as permitted to wear wigs and scarves, though.

Putaro, I'm very glad we didn't have to suffer through a Trip-gets-upset-about-some-guy-she-diddled-before-she-even-met-him plot, though I suppose it could be funny. I think you're right about a typical woman's attitude towards Risa, though. (I had exactly that while reading LoyaulteMeLie's quite nice return to Risa story up at ff.net.)

If indeed women's sexual experimentation tends to be in the interest of gaining a supportive partner or a father for her children, which makes sense in evolutionary terms, it doesn't make much sense for a Vulcan female to just go playing around unless she thinks she can find someone superior to her betrothed. (Suddenly all those Koss-is-a-horrible-dweeb stories make sense.) And Trip makes no genetic sense at all, obviously. Let's hear it for Trellium-D...

SB, we have no way of knowing how much chatting they had time for after they did the deed. For all we know, they got interrupted almost immediately. It's not exactly shown in canon, so it's anyone's guess.

[Asso]

I'd expect an oncologist to see plenty of women lose their hair. I guess guys are not as permitted to wear wigs and scarves, though.

I was joking, Alelou, however, if we want to talk seriously, I can assure you that even today the loss of hair is very, very, very difficult to tolerate by women. They make the best of a bad job and can live with this loss, of course. But only, or in large part, because it is a temporary loss, thankfully. And all this is logical: the women's hair for women is an essential part of their being. The hair loss is, simultaneously, an injury to their femininity and a constant reminder of their disease.

SB, we have no way of knowing how much chatting they had time for after they did the deed. For all we know, they got interrupted almost immediately. It's not exactly shown in canon, so it's anyone's guess.

It may be that what you say is true, Alelou. SB, however, probably is not wrong. Enough one minute, or rather a second, possibly even less, to say much to each other. Actually, come to think, I have no difficulty seeing Trip launch a very significant look at T'Pol before, they both, have to dress themselves again precipitously and throw themselves out of her quarters.
And I have even less difficulty seeing T'Pol begin to sweat (figuratively) at the thought of how she should respond in words to that look by Trip. Eh sure, because the time would come, inevitably, that Trip would ask, verbally, what he had already asked with his eyes.
Now what? How do I? What do I say to him when he wants to know? Do I must admit to having been jealous and having done what I did because I ... But no! Absolutely not, for Surak's sake! I am a Vulcan! I am refractory to every sentiment!
So what? What answer to give?
Easy, poor, little, inexperienced T'Pol. You simply respond that way by silly goose that, actually, you have used the next morning.
Funny. Oh yes. Very funny.

[Silverbullet]

Alelou, that is exactly the problem.We were not given a time frame. However, we know that the Doctor and the alien talked for a while before the alien attacked phlox. Same for Malcolm and the major, they talked for a while before fighting. Malcolm was working out when the major walked in so we may be able to take a little more time from that.

I would say that around 45 minutes between robe being dropped and the alarm going off. Plenty of time to make love and then talk. They must have to touched on what happened, why T'Pol dropped her robe and what they felt about one another. I still believe that Trip would have said "I will be back once this is over," That T'Pol waited for him but he had been taken to sickbay out cold and Phlox kept him there until just shortly before Trip came in to the dining room. that is why T'Pol said what she did. she thought that Trip didn't have the same feelings about what happened the night before as she did so she backed off.

All of this is pure conjecture because the writers cut the scene off after she dropped her Robe. NO time frame was indicated, nothing except the stupid morning after scene which did not square at all with the night before.

SB

SB