What happened?

[Alelou]

I wasn't actually responding to you Asso, so you're probably right. I was responding to SB and Kotik.

[Asso]

In this case, I'd like to know what, in general, people around here can answer me. It would be interesting and courteous.

[Distracted]

It's hard to answer a question that we don't understand, Asso. I think there's a language barrier here, because I for one have no idea what you're trying to say. Maybe if you simplified your question?

[Alelou]

Yeah, I don't see what to say to it myself that I haven't already said. Obviously we have very different ideas about writing Trip and T'Pol and about writing in general.

[Asso]

Thanks for answering, Distracted. However ... no, I do not think that I must or I can clarify what I said. I think that, in reality, it is very clear or that, if it is not, I am not capable of better clarifying what I wanted to mean. I think it's best left to lose.

[Silverbullet]

I still believe that Trip got the dirty end of the stick in Harbinger and Home.

in e2 T'Pol should have got the message. It was possible for her and Trip tohave a relationsip. something she had been fighting.

As for Trip, I am not sure. He took a lot of Crap. Can a man love a woman so much that he would take that and hope for a better future?

SB

[Alelou]

If you don't think it's possible, why would you write fanfic for Trip and T'Pol?

I mean, I would understand if the show was still on, and you were 'correcting' it in progress, but you know how it turns out. You know how much crap he gets, and how he deals with it, and how it ends up (except that we all agree to ignore *the_abomination*, right?).

I guess the other option is to rewrite the characters such that they are no longer the same people who could give each other so much grief. But then other people will say they don't recognize those people as Trip and T'Pol, and they'll have a point.

[putaro]

There's definitely a sentiment among fan fic writers (and, I'd guess, by extension most fans) to treat T'Pol as a prime example of the "Madonna/Whore" complex. Innocent, virginal, but then insatiable in the bedroom for the right man. However, what if we take T'Pol at her words and extrapolate a bit from that, though?

In "Dear Doctor" she tells Phlox:

"In my experience, humans lack the emotional maturity for interspecies relationships. They tend to be easily infatuated with things they find new."

In Harbinger she says:
"I suppose I should thank you. "
"For facilitating my exploration of human sexuality. "
"It's one of the many aspects of your species which I've been meaning to explore since I left the High Command. "

Then in E2 she says:
"Exploring human sexuality with you. You're obviously unable to have a physical relationship without developing an emotional attachment. "

So let's take a different tack on Vulcans. The usual tack seems to be that they're prudes, sexually. Why would that be? Is sex illogical?

In "Dear Doctor", T'Pol is clearly presented as being "older and wiser" when it comes to interspecies relationships. She does not express any disgust at the concept, in fact seems to regard it as something that is only possible for more "emotionally mature" species.

In Harbinger and E2 she clearly says that she was only interested in a physical relationship with Trip.

When Trip visits Vulcan in "Home", T'Les is not shocked or disgusted when she learns that Trip is "romantically involved" with T'Pol. She doesn't send him down the street to a hotel. It's not what she wants, but it's not something that she gets upset about.

So, instead of Vulcans being prudish about sex, maybe they logically treat it as just another natural function. And, given Vulcans' tendency to form marital bonds, interspecies sex is a common way to gain experience, sexually, before marriage without risking your childhood betrothal. It's also a way to get through Pon Farr with your childhood betrothal intact; Spock's Pon Farr hit at 35 and that was not supposed to be unusual. Furthermore, T'Pring was perfectly willing to mess around with Stonn even if she had wound up married to Spock.

So, under that interpretation, we have T'Pol having sex with Trip just for, well, "fun" isn't supposed to apply to Vulcans, but for some logical, non-emotional reason. Maybe it's recognized as a good way to relieve stress. It's a fling for her, and nothing more. The twist is when she actually DOES form a mating bond with Trip, much to her own surprise.

[lfvoy]

I also find it hard to believe that any woman would find such a man really attractive. He hasn't got any problems in the looks department, but can a man, who lets someone whack him hither and tither like that, really be attractive to a woman?

Clearly Kotik and T'Pol were not meant for each other.

Okay, yeah, I took that out of sequence, but I have to admit that I still found Alelou's comment far too funny for 1:30 a.m. in the Eastern U.S....

...since many of us females are here precisely because we're attracted to the character.

Call me strange, but you can put me down as one of the females who isn't attracted to Trip in a romantic sense. I think he's an awesome person and would love a chance to have a long conversation with him -- I've got a rather nifty WIP that heavily features him -- but it's precisely because he puts up with so much crap that I have little respect for him as anything other than a person. It's because I admit to myself that I'm not interested in a man who will let me walk all over him...and I know a lot of women who, like me, lose respect when a man puts up with what they know is poor treatment.

I have a hard time believing that T'Pol didn't know that she was treating Trip poorly by human standards. She'd lived among humans for several years before coming aboard Enterprise and, by her own admission, was already something of a student of their society. But there's a big difference between being an observer and being a participant.

To address Silverbullet's original comment: what I see in the breakfast scene in "Harbinger" is a scared Vulcan...one who's also of questionable emotional maturity and who has been known to rationalize her actions before. I don't quite buy into the idea of remorse because she's not really strong enough to admit to herself that she's done wrong (even though, on some level, she knows). Rather, I can imagine her working up some incredibly convoluted and contrived explanation as to why mistreating Trip was the lesser of two evils. "Needs of the many" and all that.

That's not as heartless as it might sound. People do that every day, and in my mind one reason Trip puts up with her crap is because he knows it's crap and he's waiting for her to figure that out for herself. I've often wondered what might have happened had a serious romantic possibility come along for him before T'Pol managed to grow up and admit her feelings. What impact would that have had on his patience with respect to waiting her out?

[Kotik]

Putaro and lfvoy have made some excellent points here. Especially putaro's "different tack" on Vulcans was interesting, although I don't think that Vulcans would regard physical relationships that liberally. Liberal and Vulcan are two words that usually do not belong in the same sentence.

I think that both Trip and T'Pol fell victim to poor planning and at times even poorer writing. My guess is that TPTB had planned to have a character become attracted to T'Pol from the very start, but they had no idea who. Nothing else would explain the revolting Archer/T'Pol vibes they force-fed us in season 2 - call it romantic waterboarding, because that's what it felt like to me. I don't have an Archer aversion, but there had never been any chemistry between Jolene and Scot that could hold a candle to that between Jolene and Connor.

I digress. Let's have a look at how the build-up and ultimately ruin of the TnT relationship developed. For someone, who spent weeks of developing theories around the myriad of plot holes, some things, especially in the early episodes make surpisingly much sense, but it all goes south in season 3 and in season 4 it jumps the shark.

1. Broken Bow
You can see some signs of interest between TnT as early as the ready-room scene in which T'Pol reports for duty. Both Archer and Trip are more than sceptical about Vulcans and "First Flight" shows, where those misgivings came from. But in contrast to Archer, Trip at least gives her some basic respect. While Archer remains seated, Trip at least has the basic courtesy of standing up when he is introduced to T'Pol.
Of course then came the infamous Decon scene. I can hardly imagine that there is anyone out there not seeing it for what it was - the most cheaply contrived titillation plot ever. But in a way it is an early sign of Trip and T'Pol challenging their preconceptions. If one manages to ignore the baby-oiled groping session for the sexually repressed and actually listens to what is said, it becomes the first instance of Trip succeeding in changing T'Pol's mind. She continues the mission despite thinking that it is a foolish one. In my theory that also has an impact on what happens in breaking the ice.
We later also get a first glimpse into what becomes a defining element of TnT's relationship - they work well together when they modify the sensors.

2. Unexpected
With the budding interest in "Broken Bow" and the interesting chemistry in "Strange New World", at least for a TnT shipper the early signs were established by then and it was compounded by T'Pol's behaviour in this episode. While she has a point that one shouldn't stick his fingers where they don't belong (literally), she delivers more than one jealous zinger, especially in a deleted scene:

TUCKER: If you'll excuse me, I'm not feeling very well.
T'POL: Perhaps a little lunch might help. I hear Chef has prepared Rigelian sausage. (Tucker groans) Being vegetarian I can't speak from experience, but I'm told it's quite succulent.
TUCKER: I think I'm just going to go lie down for a while.
REED: Commander, if we tune the UV sensors to the omicron band, we should be able to isolate their plasma trail a good deal faster. Do you think you could spare a minute just to help me recalibrate them?
TUCKER: I'm afraid this isn't a very good time. (makes a dash for another door, hand over mouth, noises of being sick out of camera shot)

I tend to believe that she wouldn't have done so with another crew member. Her behaviour definitely had had a smack of jealousy to it.

3. Breaking The Ice
A guilty pleasure for every TnT shipper. When I first saw it, T'Pol's decision to talk to Trip about the letter seemed to make sense with her explanation that she wanted to minimize the number of persons, who knew about the letter's content. On second thought however, there are inconsistencies. As for instance shown in "The Andorian Incident", T'Pol used to turn to Phlox for advice in the early days, which makes sense. He, too, is an alien among humans and even if it wasn't a doctor/patient situation, she had some implicit assurance that whatever they discussed would not be the hot topic in the ship's rumour mill the next day. So why did she turn to Trip?
We've seen twice in Broken Bow that Trip managed to change her mind - first in the petting session for the hormonally challenged and later, when they fight over whether or not to go back to fetch the captain from the Suliban helix. Since T'Pol was still riding the ol' Logic Horse (tm) at the time, I tend to think that Trip must have managed to bring up some convincing arguments.
At the time of of her decision to talk to Trip, I think se was still determined to let out a sigh and do what has to be done. But couldn't it be that she decided to confide in him, because she harboured the illogical hope that Trip would come up with an argument that would give her the chance to rationalize a decision to stay aboard?

4. Oasis, Desert crossing
In Oasis we yet again see Trip's charm knocking over a female with a feather and guess who's jealous again. When we look back at "Civilization", T'Pol was utterly indifferent to the obvious vibes between Rianne and Archer, but as soon as Trip gets a bit too familiar with a female she's becoming jealous. I think that by that time, the TnT relationship was well prepared. It was also compunded by a scene in Desert Crossing, when they collect Archer and a very injured Trip. The way T'Pol races straight to Trip's side and cares for him... At that point I would suggest you read Alelou's missing scene for that episode, it's a great extension of that scene

5. Season 2
Somehow the writers decided to make an illegal U-turn and suddenly started to shove an Archer/T'Pol attraction down our throats. Especially stinkers like ANIS or the character destruction of T'Pol in "The seventh", it was horrid, especially due to the missing chemistry between the characters. One of the few redeeming moments was the end of "Precious Cargo", when T'Pol gives Kaitaama the Stare of Death (tm) when she sees her way too close to an underwear clad engineer.

6. Season 3
Somehow the writers must have realized that the AinT waterboarding of season 2 didn't work. Maybe the turnin-blue-and-stopping-to-breathe thing tipped them off. So it was a U-turn again and TnT were back on. Problem is that due to the AinT phase in season 2 they hadn't developed TnT to a closeness that would make T'Pol's decision to apply neuropressure make reasonable. Instead it ended up as yet another titillation tool and Phlox was made to look like a pimp in the process. But at least it gave us tormented shippers some great TnT moments, especially those, which didn't contain gratuitious side-boob shots. T'Pol helping Trip to grieve was one of the best plots in the whole run of the show.

7. Harbinger
I hate this episode with a passion, because it destroys Trip as a man. From here, all the way to the decision to leave for Columbia Trip degenerated into a gormless doormat, who just took the crap and came back begging for more. I can see that this was more than a meaningless roll in the hay for him and probably both. I can even buy T'Pol getting cold feet and making up an outlandish experimentation excuse, but Trip's reaction borders on the submissive. If it had been me, I'd have told her where to shove it and walked away, leaving the ball in her court to repair the damage she had done. But we got only Masochistic!Trip, begging his domina to whip and abuse him.

8. Home
Here we have an episode that could have rivaled TNG's "Family" for sheer emotional value. But of course what we got was the contrived marriage plot, Phlox shitting brix and Archer being cured by getting laid. At least Trip had a final moment of having some cojones and he stayed for the ceremony. There is a good reason why many fanfic stories take their plot AU before or during home, because for some (me included) the TnT relationship jumped the shark at that point. The major complaint I have is that T'Pol did not put up a fight for Trip. She could at least have informed him about the right to challenge the marriage. If Super!Archer in the Vulcan Arc was anything to go by, humans DO have a fighting chance against a Vulcan with a Lirpa. Archer fought soldiers, while Trip's opponent would have been a not quite athletic looking architect. T'Les went into hiding just 3 eps later anyway, why not now? T'Pol awfully easily threw away any chance to be with Trip, hence the shark jump in my opinion.

9. Vulcan arc/Daedalus
There wasn't much interaction during the Vulcan arc, but there was the release from marriage, which did not only make the blackmail from "Home" utterly pointless, but it also set up the biggest TnT character assasination called "Daedalus". Nowhere have I ever heard that Vulcans must grieve in solitude, so why is Trip pushed away once again and even more importantly, why does he put up with it. By that time he's reduced to a completely gormless doormat. The biggest failure however is that T'Pol does not inform Trip about her dissolved marriage. She doesn't give the slightest damn about him. From this point onwards it became completely unrealistic.

Now we come to the 100.000$ question. Why does anyone bother to write TnT stories? Very simple - because we want to see them together. Both characters had the perfect chemistry, but were utter assasinated by the show's writing staff, who were too damn chicken to write a functioning relationship. I tend to fork my stories after Bound or Terra Prime, because we had at least some onscreen evidence that T'Pol had stopped abusing Trip, but you have to spend at least one chapter of making up stuff to instill any sense into their behaviour during season 4. I think Alelou made the best job of it in her missing scenes. The best prospect however is forking at the time of "Home". I think that's the reason, why HopefulRomantic's "Reconnecting" series is still the unmatched yard stick in the genre - at least for me.

Jeez, that's gotten a tad long
Sorry, I didn't mean to bore anyone to death

[panyasan]

Good points, Kotik!

To address Silverbullet's original comment: what I see in the breakfast scene in "Harbinger" is a scared Vulcan...one who's also of questionable emotional maturity and who has been known to rationalize her actions before. I don't quite buy into the idea of remorse because she's not really strong enough to admit to herself that she's done wrong (even though, on some level, she knows). Rather, I can imagine her working up some incredibly convoluted and contrived explanation as to why mistreating Trip was the lesser of two evils. "Needs of the many" and all that.

That's not as heartless as it might sound. People do that every day, and in my mind one reason Trip puts up with her crap is because he knows it's crap and he's waiting for her to figure that out for herself. I've often wondered what might have happened had a serious romantic possibility come along for him before T'Pol managed to grow up and admit her feelings. What impact would that have had on his patience with respect to waiting her out?

I agree totally with you Ifvoy. I like Trip's character a lot (not so much the way he looks) and I don't think he is a door mat. He knows that T'Pol's actions and sayings are crap.
In my view something happened during their love making that made he know what T'Pol was really thinking. If you are getting so close psysical with a Vulcan as you can be, I wouldn't be surprised that you would get a closeness on mind/katra level as well. In short: a short of mind meld. Trip has experienced what she really feels and that's why he can put up with all her denying. You probably find a plot hole in this theory, but it kind of makes sense for me!

[Silverbullet]

Kotik, you had me laughing so hard. You are very funny.

Harbinger. Does anyone believe that Trip and T'Pol DIDN'T talk after making love? One problem with that scene was we were given no time frame for how long their love making lasted. I believe that they probably made love at least twice and talked in between those times.

What would they sya to one another? Talk about their Stock portfolios? doubtful.

Talk about their true feelings for one another, absolutely.

What would Trip say on his way out of the door when the alarm sounded? "I will be back when this is over. But he has been knocked out by the alien, kept in Sickbay by Phlox and cannot return. This may be why T'Pol said what she did. She may have believed not knowing that Phlox was keeping Trip in sickbay for observation, that Trip did not return deliberately because it was just a roll in the ay for him. Buti was not for her. So, she stiffs him to protect herself.

That is my story and I am sticking to it.

SB

[Cogito]

You probably find a plot hole in this theory, but it kind of makes sense for me!

Yup, me too.

[Distracted]

Another thing all you guys and gals who are rooting for Macho!Trip! should keep in mind is the romantic trope classically exemplified in "The Princess Bride". Movies and TV shows are fantasy, not reality, and in certain situations the words "As you wish" can be the most seductive words that a man could ever say to a woman.

[Alelou]

Putaro's evidence that T'Pol is not ignorant of sex but actually sophisticated about it makes sense -- except that it doesn't jibe with the mating every seven years thing and her lack of interest in recreational activities of that kind on Risa. I'm thinking that T'Pol can have the kind of worldly, informed view about sexual liaisons or interspecies couples that anyone who's well-read or well-informed can have (or think they have), without actually ever having had any.

This is not to say that any particular fic couldn't sell me on the idea that she's actually quite experienced. But, Putaro, even you haven't written T'Pol as experienced in your series, have you?

Her simply wanting a physical relationship with Trip also doesn't jibe with the jealousy we see from her quite continually in the series, right from season one. I am with Kotik on that point, even if I don't despair over Trip's manliness as quickly as he does.

I think a man who's really secure in his masculinity can let himself lose some face without freaking out. Yes, they pushed that right to the limit and beyond on Enterprise, but I've seen it happen in real life, too, and yet people go on and live their lives happily as far as I can tell. As someone put it on this board, not all males are alpha males. I would also argue that not all females are femininely pliant either ... or willing to seem pliant just to keep other people (especially their man) happy. I look at my own mother, who will lie through her teeth in social and domestic situations to be polite or supportive but then will erupt quite unpredictably in rage, and I see someone who would have been better off just being allowed to be honest from the get-go instead of being brought up to be 'nice'.