What happened?

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Re: What happened?

Postby Silverbullet » Mon Apr 30, 2012 1:58 am

I still say that Demons and Terra Prime indicated that Trip and t'Pol had an intimate thing going. Trip tells Phlox that T'Pol might have got pregnant and not told him about it. (again it is that damned time frame thing.)Phlox says "And she had the embyro removed without your knowledge. Ithink you know hte answer to that" (now how is Trip going to know that T'Pol has had an embyro removed? She wouldn't tell him.So he has to see her nekid because then it would show up either she would be bleeding or wearing pads to soak up the blood. in either case Trip would see it) I think that there was a good deal of time that has passed between the time she seduced Trip and Demons and Terra Prime so Trip is talking about the present. Later T'Pol says to Trip "You think I might have gotten pregnant and not told you" same thing, I believe too much time had passed for her to be talking about a pregnancy resulting from her seduction of Trip in the Expanse. So, that being the case they are in Demons and Terra Prime having an intimate (sexual) relationship.

Other comments made in the episode indicate te same thing.

Why did the theieif steal T'Pol's and Trip'sDNA why not T'Pol's and Archer's? Because TnT were in an intimate relationship that was general knowledge aboard the Enterprise.

I believe that when Trip says that a Human and a Vulcan can have a child he means them. (despite the vagueness the writers put in.)

Anything after Terra Prime is crap.

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Re: What happened?

Postby panyasan » Mon Apr 30, 2012 7:24 am

I just got up and missed part of the discussion, but I wanted to respond to SB's remarks. Bolds are mine.

Silverbullet wrote:Panysanne, that is not the way I remember the Episode. Koss and T'Pol are in the Garden. T'Pol tells Koss to leave. Koss walks to the way outside, pauses and then tells T'Pol the reason for T'Les no longer being at the Acadmy. she did not retire she was forced out.

Koss goes on to say that his daddy is well connected and can get T'les Reinstated. IF, T'Pol agrees to marry Koss. No political alliances there. Just pure and simple blackmail.

It is blackmail! But the fact that Koss's father is well connected and can get T'Les reinstated indicated that Koss's father can change a political move, so he has political power to change a political situation.

Silverbullet wrote:T'Pol opens the letter, announces that Koss wants to see her. T'pol says she has nothing to say to koss and does not want to see him. T'Les insists that T'Pol see Koss and the look on the face of T'Les is quite hard.Later T'Les tells T'Pol that a marriage to Trip would be bad and that any children would suffer. T'Les does not look at T'Pol while she says this.

Politics is influenced by culture, a culture that doesn't except Human-Vulcan childern.

Another thought: why should Koss's family want Koss marry T'Pol. She is the least ideal candidate: she is suffuring from a fatal disease, she is an outcasts by sticking by the Human, she is a disgrace in the eyes of many Vulcans. The only reason Koss's family would have T'Pol marry Koss if she was of some importance in her family and her family had poltical and economic value. Otherwise marrying T'Pol is the most illogical action ever.

So to sum up: I think that there are indicators to suggest that the marriage between T'Pol and Koss was motivated by political and economic reasons and the tool was blackmail.

Now back to the question if T'Pol and Trip would cross the line and commit adultery: I don't think so. The fact that Vulcans speak more academic about sex doesn't indicated they are so free in regard to sex. There is a difference between academicly free to talk about the things of nature and/or to study Human habits and make your conclusions, it's another thing to break your vows of marriage and commit adultery.

I like to give an example and be aware I speaking in general terms.
In my country we have no problems to show a couple of boobs on television (after a certain hour!). No problem. Boobs are natural.
Now anyone how sees this would conclude that we are so free about sex and have no rules. However, a survey had shown that from all the Europeans the Dutch are the most faithfull to their wifes. Adultery is seen as something very bad. And never asked a Dutchman about his sexlife or you get punched. That's private. You don't talk about it.

So Vulcans can be free or clinical about sexual habits of others, it doesn't mean they don't have rules regarding adultery. In fact, the whole way Vulcan life is set up, it would indicate that adultery is seen as something bad. And the way T'Pol responses to Trip in Borderland would indicate that she as well think adultery is wrong.
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Re: What happened?

Postby Alelou » Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:19 am

Which response in Borderland was that?

I'm a little bemused to hear that the Dutch are so faithful, but that's probably because I stayed in a Christian youth hostel in the middle of the red light district in Amsterdam. The number of neat middle-aged men in business suits who appeared to be shopping for whores when work let out was a little startling to me. (For that matter, so was the number of whores.) But I suppose it's possible none of those men were married.
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Re: What happened?

Postby panyasan » Mon Apr 30, 2012 1:17 pm

Well, most of those visitors at the Red Light District are from abroad and I doubt if none of them were married. And most of those tourists who "'having a look through that awful Red Light District" are from a certain country that blames the Netherlands to be immoral. Which we found rather hypocritical. I personally hate the Red District, which is in the process of disappering and hope it's gone as quickly as possible. Not because those men visting those girls mostly cheat on their wives, but because a lot of those woman are trapped into this life and hate it.

You never will understand the Dutch if you don't get their pragmatic side. As it comes to prostitution, they give people the freedom to act like they want and if people want to visit a prostitute, most people will not give that person a great speech that he shouldn't. The most they would say, is that they personally wouldn't cheat on their wives and maybe give some explanation why they wouldn't.

Of course Dutch man and woman aren't perfect, so some of them may cheat on their wife, while the rest is merely very faithfull. Still visiting a prostitute and/or cheating on your wife or husband, is seen as a bad thing to do.

I am going to look up that response in Borderland and come back at you!
Last edited by panyasan on Mon Apr 30, 2012 3:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What happened?

Postby Kotik » Mon Apr 30, 2012 1:52 pm

Since prostitution is legal and regulated in Germany, people don't attach that much of a stigma to a visit in a brothel anymore. In a properly registered etablissiment, all the Ladies have proper health insurance and the place is subjected to regular checks by the Health Care Authorities. Mainly it is just another service provider. And why not? Selling is legal, shagging is legal, so why should selling shagging be illegal?

One of the earliest customers I had after opening my own company in 2004 was a local etablissiment. They wanted me to do their website, because once prostitution was declared legal, they could start to advertise their services. During that time I got to know some of the ladies, who worked there, because I had to interview them for their professional profile on the page. Not one of them told me that they were doing it involuntarily. Some of them did it, because they didn't mind what they did and could earn twice or three times as much as the would in an office job. Others admitted to being nymphomaniacs. How much better can it get to get your fix and even being paid for it. All had proper work permits and prostitute is a government approved profession in Germany. For instance all registered prostitutes have to have a thorough health check every 3 months and it is free of charge.

Interestingly enough only a minority of customers are married men, who cheat on their wives. Those who do are usually in a sexually unfulfilling relationship. Quite a sizeable portion of men, who peruse such services are widowers or people in their twenties or thirties without much success with the female of the species. Often customers don't even come for the sex - especially aforementioned widowers. They often just come to find someone to be and talk with.

One very remarkable case, I remember was told to me by a Lady from Belarus. She had a 'regular customer', who visited her twice a month with the blessing of his wife. His wife had an episiotomy during child birth, leaving her nigh-on unable to have sex without pain. Instead of forcing her husband to live in celibacy or driving him into the arms of another woman, she actually agreed that he visited a prostitute. I later learned that she actually knew the Lady that took care of her husbands urges.

On a different note, several therapists even advise to use such services. I've been living alone for six years now. Three years ago, I came down with prostate pain and they couldn't find any reason for it, until the doctor asked me about my love life (god was that an embarassing talk :oops: ). After having established that my last sexual encounter had been over 4 years ago at the time, she asked about... um... helping myself. Now, I know that it is a normal thing for both males and females, I still feel extremely undignified during a visit to Mrs. Fist, Finger Av. No. 5, so I avoided it until the urge gecame physically uncomfortable (or I just ejected in my sleep). Trust me, it's a rather strange feeling if your doc tells you give a low five regularly or visit a prostitute :o

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Re: What happened?

Postby Cogito » Mon Apr 30, 2012 1:57 pm

TMI, Kotik! :shock: :oops:

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Re: What happened?

Postby Kotik » Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:02 pm

Why, Cogito, you squeemish ;-) :evillol:

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Re: What happened?

Postby Silverbullet » Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:38 pm

Let me see: I lived in Holland for three years. At one time there were women in windows on the canals. Tour boats actually went down those canals to show off those women. Tour boats didn't stop. In the Hague , no Canals but was told that there was a street with Purple awnings which signaled the Red Light area. The dutch are a very tolerant people so Porn was sold openly even kiddie Porn. (that stuff will make one gag)

In Germany there were areas. Frankfurt Am Main which was heavily American GI had an area of Bars and Cat houses. Hamburg had a famous area called the Repper Bahn. It had Peep shows, live shows and one street with women sitting in windows. All legal. interestingly enough there were women on the street who were illegal. those women all had Pimps who were Arabs.

In Thailand a girl could work as a hooker for three years, save enough money to go back to her village, buy some land and marry the chiefs Son. She could earn more in three years than she could bending over a rice paddy in twenty ears. The american wives club was working to outlaw prostitution in Thailand.

TheWhite Slaver exists in stories but as Kotik noted most of the women in prostitution are there willingly either because the money is good or they are hooked on Drugs.

As for Vulcans. I think that if there was any prostitution it would be legal if the women worked as "Priestesses to help men through their Pon Far. I suppose there would ave to be some sort of outlet for men going through Pon Far who did not have a mate or wife. There would be the risk of a Man in Pon Far going bannanas and jumping the first female he came across. Not good.

I have wondered if Vulcan Men going through Pon Far who did not have a mate if they would lope the mule.

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Re: What happened?

Postby Alelou » Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:44 pm

The things we'll say online to people who don't know who we really are...

I know enough not to judge all of the Netherlands from one red light district, and I don't even significantly disapprove of such stuff being legal (although I have a student who just turned in a research paper that says the Swedish model that criminalizes the johns is far preferable in terms of women's health and safety to legalizing an industry that can encourage human trafficking). I just remember being very taken aback. You think of people visiting prostitutes as furtive, but there was just nothing furtive at all about those men, who mostly all looked like prosperous businessmen. I found it shocking at the time because my stereotype of the Dutch were that they would obsessively clean their front stoops and mostly be good upright Lutherans or even saints of the type who hid Anne Frank's family, and I also hadn't realized just how literal "red light" was.

Mind you, this was over 20 years ago, Panyasan. It might well have been another world. Times Square in NYC back in those days was a hell hole full of peep shows and hookers and that lovely smell of urine in the morning, but it's fairly clean and family-friendly now.

I see your country is criminalizing the purchase of pot by non-residents too, now. That certainly wasn't the case when I was there. I could hardly walk a block in certain parts of the city without someone trying to sell me drugs. And so, of course, there were certain students who made a bee-line for Amsterdam primarily FOR that reason.
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Re: What happened?

Postby Kotik » Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:44 pm

Silverbullet wrote:
I have wondered if Vulcan Men going through Pon Far who did not have a mate if they would lope the mule.

SB


Interesting idea, but maybe their wrists can't take the pounding :lol: :lol:

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Re: What happened?

Postby panyasan » Mon Apr 30, 2012 3:54 pm

You're right, Alelou, things have changed and I can understand you were taking aback when you first saw the red light district. I was too, when I visited the it and talked to the women who worked there. The Netherlands is a very diverse country with the majority being rather conservative. We even have Amish-like people and the christian-democrats didn't have power for almost 70 years in a row for nothing. And Amsterdam has many faces and isn't the whole of the Netherlands, just as Kansas or New York is the whole of the States.

I must protest against the idea that child porn is normal in my country, as SB suggested. It's illegal and one of the top priorities of our police to fight this. There is just been a big trial about a child abuser being very much involveld in child porn and it all made us sick to the stomach. And I don't think porn is sold on every corner either.

So after defending my country on our national holiday ;-) , let's go back to the topic at hand (TnT) shall we?
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Re: What happened?

Postby Weeble » Mon Apr 30, 2012 4:49 pm

I am with Panyasan. I think we have strayed a bit to far off topic. This is a family show. :shock:
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Re: What happened?

Postby Silverbullet » Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:12 pm

Panyanne, the first time I was in Amsterdam i was so taken with how clean it was. then drove through the residential area and saw Dutch women scrubbing the sidewalk in front of their house. I even saw one scrubbing the street. I met a wonderful draft beer called Orange tree (not the Dutch name but its English equivalent) I had coffee and a Sandwhich in a small lunch counter. Being American I left a trip. I was stopped by the people who had been sitting beside me to give back the money they thought I had forgotten (the Tip) So I thanked them shook hands all round including the waitress. when I shook her hand I passed the money to her. Everyone was happy.

The next time I was in Amsterdam the hippies had trashed it. It was a mess.

Then was stationed in the Hague. At that time Child Port was legal in holland (it is not anymore. Fact is two countries had legalized child Porn. Denmark and Holland. Interestingly enough I talked to a dutch cop who was a friend of one of the DEA agents stationed in the Embassy he told me that 95 percent of the kiddie stuff was produced in the U.S. apparently you could sell it in holland but it was against the law to produce it) There were Porn shops all over Holland.

Thank god that Holland also has things like the Rijks (sp) Museum where one can see the great masters Painting. Go to delft to buy Delftware. Sample the great Dutch cheeses.

One thing I did learn: you cannot kid a Dutchman about Money. that is a reverent subject in Holland.

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Re: What happened?

Postby panyasan » Tue May 01, 2012 7:46 pm

Thanks for your post, Silverbullet. My first response was :shock: I learned something new. Being brought up in different time I honestly can say I didn't know.

Today I had this weird idea that T'Pol's husband would inherit their family property according to Vulcan law which clearly says "Vulcan" husband. So if she married a Human, she would inherit the place herself. To prevent this, Koss's father tells T'Pol that he would let Trip get some "unfortunate" accident if she doesn't marry Koss and that he will make a mess of the Vulcan-Human relationship. T'Pol feels she has no choice and agrees on only one condition that she would return to Enterprise after meditating for two weeks, so Koss couldn't get his hand on her.

Don't you love Home. All the different ways of explaining those storyholes while you should be concentrating on your work.... :nerd:
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Re: What happened?

Postby putaro » Wed May 02, 2012 4:15 pm

While I don't think adultery is a good idea usually, I wouldn't fault T'Pol in this case given that she had made it pretty clear to Koss just what he would be getting. It's kind of like getting married for a green card.

Why is Koss so interested in this marriage? Saving face? Burning desire for T'Pol? (And is that "logical"?) And T'Pol is getting married to save her mother's job?? Isn't that a pretty small thing to get for marrying?
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